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Carelessness and Casualness in worship
The Middletown Bible Church ^ | 08/19/03 | various authors

Posted on 08/19/2003 7:56:34 PM PDT by RaceBannon

Carelessness and Casualness in Worship

"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself [conduct thyself] in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15)

"God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about Him." (Psalm 89:7)

Whatever Happened to our Sunday Best? by Dr. Paul Tassell

The Way We Dress Should Show That We Honor the Lord!

One trend I have noted in local churches in recent years is carelessness. Carelessness in dress. Many people attend the house of God attired the same way they would dress for a rodeo or a football game.

When people are to be guests at the White House for a meeting with the President, they dress up—suits and ties for the men; pretty dresses for the ladies. Appropriate dress indicates appropriate respect. When the President speaks to a joint session of congress, the gallery guests as well as the lawmakers are all dressed in their best.

Does not our Lord Jesus Christ, the Head of the Church, deserve as much consideration and respect as our President? Does not your pastor deserve that much respect for his message?

I grew up in a home with two brothers and three sisters. My job every Saturday night was to polish eight pairs of shoes My parents taught us six children to "dress up in our Sunday best" for the house of God. When my wife and I go to hear our pastor, we dress up. We respect him, and we respect the Lord he represents.

Pastors and their wives should lead the way in setting a proper example of dressing for the occasion. More than once I have been disappointed at a classy restaurant where I was meeting with a group of businessmen and a pastor, only to have the pastor show up open-collared and inappropriately informal while all the businessmen were dressed in three-piece suits and ties. I do not believe the pastor's influence and testimony were enhanced by such a breach of etiquette.

I know the Lord looks on the heart, and clothes don't necessarily make the man, but how we dress when we go to a worship service ought to indicate how much we honor our Lord. We do not have to be fashion models, but we should "dress up" for our Saviour's special day at His special house, the local church. The spirit of what I am saying is captured in the words of Malachi:

A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a Master, where is My fear (reverence)? saith the Lord of hosts unto you, O priests (Malachi 1:6).

"Just as I Am" is an invitation for sinners, not a description of how the saints are to attend a church service. The Prodigal Son came home in rags. As soon as his father accepted him, however, he was dressed in a fine robe; shoes were put on his feet and a ring on his finger. Before Joseph went in to have an audience with Pharaoh, "he shaved himself, and changed his raiment" (Genesis 41:14). So should we look our best when going to the house of God to worship the Lord of the Church.

I am not pleading for barring anyone from a church service because of the way he or she is dressed. But I do think visitors to our services ought to be impressed by how special we believe our church and Lord to be as we "dress up."

Let's not allow our local churches to become sanctuaries of the sloppy and temples of the tacky. Let's respect our Master, minister and message. --Dr. Paul Tassell

* * * * * * * *

God's Holy and Special Person requires reverence on the part of those who know Him and who seek to honor His Name. "God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about Him" (Psalm 89:7). He is the great and awe-inspiring God who demands our worshipful respect, not only in the way we dress, but also in the way we sing.

We dress in a proper and special way on the Lord's Day because it is a special occasion and we are meeting with a special Person, even the God who is to be feared and revered. Because of this special occasion and special Person, we want to sing in a manner that is appropriate and befitting such a worthy and glorious God. It is a time of worship, not entertainment. Applause runs horizontally and relates to man's humanity and not vertically relating to God's deity. It is out of place in the place that is seeking only to point to God and honor Him.

The dressing, the singing, the bending of the heart before God in humble worship—all of this is but the preparation of one's heart attitude for the glad reception of God's Holy Word. The One who is high and holy is looking for those who will tremble at His Word (Isaiah 66:1-2). He is looking for those who will bow before the authority of His Word. "Speak Lord, for Thy servant is listening."

Right dressing encourages right thinking. Right thinking encourages right singing. Right singing readies and tunes the heart for thankful learning. May God's Word dwell in us richly and may God the Master Musician produce His melody in our hearts to His praise (Col. 3:16). "And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD" (Psalm 40:3).

* * * * * *

Casualness in the Way We Sing

by Robert Regal

Music, The Barometer of a Society The church has swallowed the monstrous heresy that noise (music), size, bluster and activity, make a man dearer to God. --A. W. Tozer The article by Dr. Tassell and the above quote of Dr. Tozer should sound an alarm in the midst of the saints who have gone to sleep at the helm of the "Good Ship Grace," and have turned aside from "the faith once delivered to the saints." The Church, the "Body" and "Bride" of Christ, made up of local assemblies around the world has been impacted in our time by the "spirit of the world" (1 Corinthians 2:12). This is foreign to God's ideal which is delineated in the rest of the verse: "...but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God."

Many of the saints of our time seem unable to discern "the Spirit of God" from "the spirit of the world." We are commanded not to love the world, nor be enamored by it, and never to be dominated by it. We are not to be "conformed to the world, but transformed by the renewing of the mind," for "...we have the mind of Christ" (Romans 12:2; 1 Corinthians 2:16).

Particular contemporary musical styles have become classic examples of the "spirit of the world" invading the church. Not only have they invaded the assemblies of believers world wide, but they dominate. Try to address it and the assembly splits. Leadership hesitates to address it for fear of creating unnecessary waves, and, "after all, we must get together in our day; we must unite on the main issues and not be overly concerned by doctrine." (I might add, we need to be sure that it is sound doctrine.) First, certain styles of the musical language are tolerated, this is soon followed by domination (down with the traditional, conservative, stylings) which, in turn, leads to compromise.

A consequence of this invasion affects the life style of the believer. Where you find an emphasis on much of contemporary stylings, you will notice a cloak of casualness that moves in among the saints. Thus the timely article of Dr. Tassell. If this situation is addressed the assembly cries out, "legalism!"

The style of music will not only affect the attitude of the saint in the area of clothes, grooming, and personal deportment, but in theology. It fosters a looseness in the spirit of worship, teaching, edification and fellowship. I have observed in many of the churches in which I have visited this "casualness," not only in attire, but in fellowship (conversation, noise), which becomes boisterous to the point that the pastor or man of music, or whoever is in charge, has great difficulty in beginning the service. What makes it worse is that the fellowship (conversation, noise), usually has nothing to do with the purpose of the church meeting together. What has created this mood and encouraged this pre-service situation?

One of the strengths of music and its varied styles are the moods and the emotions it generates. I am not saying that Pop, rock, in all its versions, Western, Country Western, Jazz, Folk, Stamp Baxter, New Age, Contemporary, and such like, are not part of the musical language, for they are an expression that comes out of our age and culture, which culture, in many areas, is caught up in insipid subjectivism and decadence. What I am saying is that these styles and idioms speak of the world and its culture good and bad and are thus disqualified to be the musical vehicle for the saints in worship, fellowship, evangelism, and the Christian life in general. The following are two quotes supporting this position:

The development of form in music itself is an attempt to reach completeness through an artistic media. Music having a definite secular symbolism is poor music for worship. Jazz, etc. is confusing. It is too much like everyday life to be ultimately satisfying. (Emphasis Mine)

--Dr. Bernstein, Professor of Music, New York University

Art and music always reflect a particular view on life and the world. Deeply felt values are expressed through the way the theme and subject matter are handled. Thus, even junk and punk rock say something very definite, very deliberate. What rock is saying in today's culture disqualifies it as a vehicle for spiritual communication.

Reduced to its smallest component parts, music is amoral. There is nothing inherently wrong with 440 hz vibration or a dotted quarter note followed by an eighth note. The same could be said for a letter in the alphabet or a drop of paint or a particle of clay. But as soon as a human being combines any of these building blocks, the creative process has begun and the resulting creation always reflects a view of life.

For this reason, the Christian cannot sanitize rock. Even if we ignored the worldly associations of rock (and we cannot), its musical origins spring from a view of life altogether different from the Christian's. Because Christ must be the focal point of our music, the style must never overshadow Him or draw attention to itself. (Emphasis mine)

--Peck, "Rock, Making Musical Choices"

For too long the church has assumed and taken for granted its musical heritage which is rich in great hymn and gospel composition wedded to magnificent texts both in subjectivity and objectivity, that have passed testing through the channels of time and have emerged in our day arranged and rearranged, added to and extended, imbued with the touch of the art of great musical invention. Excellent music has been and is being written in our day, but one has to sift through and discern its textual and musical values and not be caught up in the argument for style. God gave us the substance of music, man gives us the style. There are 12 tones in our music scale. The arrangement of these tones in melody and harmony, the pulse of the meter that drives it and guides it, the text that gives the composition meaning, all fall into a style that must be thought about.

It should be remembered that two areas are involved in music ministry in and to the assembly, and for that manner, to each other and to ourselves. See Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16 and Hebrews 13:15. Two languages are wedded together and both have a grammar, a syntax, and a rhetoric: Lyrics, or the word text, and composition, the music text. This then is the substance of musical expression, which expression becomes the barometer of a society. If this is true, and it is, then we could say without any provocation, that it is also a barometer of the church and its condition in society, and in its address to today's culture.

The Lord Jesus is a model for every believer. He was in the world but was not of the world: "I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world" (John 17:14). He was sent on a mission to the world, a world which hated Him, and He in turn has sent believers into the world, and in turn, the world will hate them; that is, if they are truly believers and love Him and desire to please Him as He pleased the Father, and realize that they also are on a mission to the world. See John 17:15-21.

The Lord Jesus, in verse 21, requested unity for the future believers (see also verse 11 and verse 22). These verses have been misused and abused by the promoters of the present ecumenical movement.

"Admittedly the divided church is in many ways a scandal. The cure, however, is not institutional union. Jesus was not praying for the unity of a single, worldwide, ecumenical church in which doctrinal heresy would be maintained along with orthodoxy. Instead, He was praying for the unity of love, a unity of obedience to God and His Word, and a united commitment to His will. There are great differences between uniformity, union, and unity." (Emphasis Mine)

The Bible Knowledge Commentary (NT), p. 333

All believers belong to the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13), and the world should know of their spiritual unity by their life style. This life style, whether the church or the world, is expressed through the greatest medium of expression we know, musical expression, the heart of this discussion. Nowhere in the Word of God am I encouraged to adopt the musical language that expresses the world that hates God and the believer, for as Dr. Bernstein wrote...."music having a definite secular symbolism is poor music for worship...it is confusing. It is too much like everyday life to be ultimately satisfying."

"When you take great theology and wed it to grand musicology, it ascends before God in magnificent doxology." Stephen Olford

--Robert Regal From the book: With the Voice of Singing

Additional Thoughts

On Worship

REVERENCE BEFORE THE AWE-INSPIRING GOD

If we are going to know God who is holy, we need to reverence and fear Him. "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction" (Prov. 1:7). Since God truly is such a unique and awesome Person, He ought to have our respect. When we speak of His Name and Fame we ought to have a healthy response that reverences Him because of who He is.

Worship is intimately connected with the reverence and fear of God. Worship means to prostrate oneself before God, to bend down, to bow down, to bend the knee and thus to bend the heart. "O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our Maker" (Psalm 95:6).

We need to read the Bible with an understanding that God has all authority. He has the right to be worshipped and reverenced. The least I can do is hear what He says and respond to what He says in the right way. I may not understand all He says, but at least I will give Him reverence. I will bend my heart and bow before the authority of His Word.

The Bible describes God as a "terrible God." This means that He inspires terror, fear, dread. He is awe-inspiring, demanding our deepest respect because of WHO HE IS and WHAT HE HAS SAID. "For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible [awe-inspiring]" (Deut. 10:17). "If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD" (Deut. 28:58). May He be your fear! May He be your dread! (Isaiah 8:13).

THE MISSING INGREDIENT

Whatever characterizes the religious attitude of our day, it is not reverence and awe. Rarely can one enter a church today, where the hustled silence in the atmosphere makes one conscious of the presence of Him who is a "consuming fire." The head bowed "waiting in silence for God only," the tuning of the heart, the tremulous expectancy have gone out of worship. A babble of voices and a discussion of trivial affairs is not an atmosphere conducive to doing business with the living God.

Here are some suggestions as you prepare for the worship service: 1. Remember that when the organ begins playing the prelude, God's people are to be silent. There is to be a "holy hush" as believers prepare their hearts to meet a holy God. Refrain from talking and chatting with your pew neighbor so that your mind will be centered on the Lord rather than on self and others. 2. The moments may be used for silent prayer—remembering yourself and your own heart attitude, the Pastor, the choir and the other worshippers. 3. The moments may be used for prayerful meditation—you could think upon a verse of Scripture or you could meditate upon what you learned from the Pastor's last message. 4. Remember the words from Psalm 46:10--"BE STILL, and know that I am God: I WILL BE EXALTED among the heathen, I WILL BE EXALTED in the earth."

HOW TO WORSHIP

Be silent. Be thoughtful.

Be reverent, for this is the house of the Lord.

Before the service, speak to God.

During the service, let God speak to you.

After the service, speak to one another.

LEARNING FROM THE ANGELS

"When we consider what glorious beings the angels are, and yet that they are but creatures of, and servants to, the God whom we serve, waiting before His Throne, and humbly attending His commands; this consideration, if we let it sink deeply into our hearts, must needs possess us with most awful apprehensions of the glorious majesty of our God at all times, but especially in our approaches to Him in His worship, and fill us with the greatest reverence and humility. With what reverence should we behave ourselves in our addresses to the Divine Majesty, before whom the Seraphim themselves hide their faces! And if they cover their feet, are conscious to themselves of their natural imperfection, compared to the infinitely glorious God; how should we clods of earth, we vile sinners, blush and be ashamed in His presence, assuming no confidence to ourselves, but what is founded on the mercies of God and the merits of our blessed Redeemer and Advocate, Jesus Christ!"--Bishop Bull (1634-1710)

IMPROVING THE PASTOR'S PREACHING

Sunday the sermon was sluggish, 'twas hard attention to keep.

The theme was faultily chosen, it almost put me to sleep.

Monday was blue with sheer boredom; Tuesday was carnal by choice.

Wednesday my conscience was wakened by pleas from a still small voice.

Prayer Meeting left me uplifted, loyalty lingering long.

Thursday my heart was responding; Friday His nudging was strong.

I came to thorough repentance the following Saturday;

I yielded in full surrender as all on the altar I lay.

Sunday the sermon was perfect, superb and quite at its peak;

Amazing how greatly the Pastor improved in the space of one week!

* * * * * Come with a prayerful attitude and a prepared heart. You will find it to be one of the best ways of improving the Pastor's preaching! There will be more POWER in the pulpit when there is more PRAYERFULNESS and PREPAREDNESS in the pew!

The Middletown Bible Church 349 East Street Middletown, CT 06457 (860) 346-0907 More articles under The Local Church


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; Philosophy; US: Connecticut
KEYWORDS: carelessness; ccm; sin
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To: Quix
HAVE YOU EVER been standing next to someone in a blessed service and EXPERIENCED them having a tooth filled instantly? Seen gold dust appear? Observed the clearly demonstrated anointing and heavy PRESENCE OF GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT on people and in a space? Heard angels sing?

I am making no a priori judgment as to whether this is the work of righteous spirits, but a lot of folks would be weirded out. I probably would.

241 posted on 08/20/2003 9:45:43 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck
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To: SpinnerWebb
Very well said.

Though about 5-7 paragraphs formatting would have been much easier on old eyes and more attractive for all eyes to read.

Eyes need micro rests in the white spaces between paragraphs.
242 posted on 08/20/2003 9:47:34 AM PDT by Quix (DEFEAT her unroyal lowness, her hideous heinous Bwitch Shrillery Antoinette de Fosterizer de MarxNOW)
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To: Quix
Wasn't it John the Baptist who said "you brood of vipers" ?
243 posted on 08/20/2003 9:48:04 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck
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To: HiTech RedNeck
It sure shocked the fellow it happened to. I was jealous. I'd had as much faith toward it as I could muster and a mouth full of problems. Still no such. Ah well. God knows.

Probably about 135-150 people had their teeth filled that night.

I suppose the dentists would have been furious.

God was obviously delighted and having a great fun time playing wonderously with the whole group. It was grand. Holy Spirit was so thick in the air of the room. It was precious. Will never forget it.

Have seen just a hint of the gold dust once. Very thin layer--beautiful on a beautiful, humble, needy face. AND IT WASN'T THERE BEFORE.
244 posted on 08/20/2003 9:51:04 AM PDT by Quix (DEFEAT her unroyal lowness, her hideous heinous Bwitch Shrillery Antoinette de Fosterizer de MarxNOW)
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To: HiTech RedNeck
It sure shocked the fellow it happened to. I was jealous. I'd had as much faith toward it as I could muster and a mouth full of problems. Still no such. Ah well. God knows.

Probably about 135-150 people had their teeth filled that night.

I suppose the dentists would have been furious.

God was obviously delighted and having a great fun time playing wonderously with the whole group. It was grand. Holy Spirit was so thick in the air of the room. It was precious. Will never forget it.

Have seen just a hint of the gold dust once. Very thin layer--beautiful on a beautiful, humble, needy face. AND IT WASN'T THERE BEFORE.
245 posted on 08/20/2003 9:52:42 AM PDT by Quix (DEFEAT her unroyal lowness, her hideous heinous Bwitch Shrillery Antoinette de Fosterizer de MarxNOW)
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To: SpinnerWebb
Open your heart to worship. Let Him meet you where you are. In no example in the New Testament did Jesus turn people away because they were not properly dressed.

Thanks for posting this. Good stuff!
246 posted on 08/20/2003 9:52:45 AM PDT by j_k_l
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To: HiTech RedNeck
Hmmm I think Jesus did too at one point . . . wasn't it around the whited sepulcher area. Will check.

. . . .

Matthew 12

33"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. 35The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.

BIBLE GATEWAY IS SO GREAT!

Matthew 23
32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.

THANKS.
247 posted on 08/20/2003 9:55:44 AM PDT by Quix (DEFEAT her unroyal lowness, her hideous heinous Bwitch Shrillery Antoinette de Fosterizer de MarxNOW)
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To: SpinnerWebb
We argued that fact, pointing to the exact reference in I Chronicles 15 where the event took place. We were told that we didn't have to raise the money around here, and that donations dropped significantly when that song was played. To which my worship band leader replied "THAT's what it's all about". She left a few weeks later.

Was it a self contained phenomenon, or a side effect of fewer people? The first shouldn't matter before the Lord, but if it was driving people away that's another story....

Speaking of saxophone which you mentioned, I play keyboards only but one of my synths has a pretty awesome tenor saxophone voice. I sometimes do a jazz rendition of "God and God Alone" on my "cybersax" with piano accompaniment. (That's "cybersAx" :-)

248 posted on 08/20/2003 9:56:44 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck
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To: PleaseNoMore
"when He was on the cross, I was on His mind"

That's true. My issue is with the emphasis in the song being that He was thinking of "me above all." As though it were "all about me." As though I were the most important thing. I'm not.

There's a book out called "God's Passion for His Glory," a book originally written by Jonathan Edwards and re-released with note by John Piper. In it, the author shows that God is passionate "above all" about His glory. And the cross magnifies "His glory" like no other thing.

So it's not really a matter of "He was thinking about me / He wasn't thinking about me." It's about the emphasis being on "me" vs. the emphasis being on "God's glory."

249 posted on 08/20/2003 9:57:34 AM PDT by Theo
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To: RaceBannon
"250 people, eh?"

Yup. It was stunning and it wasn't the first time it has happened. Last year on one Sunday, the Pastor Baptized 187 people. He simply asked if anyone would like to be baptized and they filled the center stage and aisles.

. "See how many came back this coming Sunday."

Most all of them. We have a rather high retention rate because we get people involved immediately in the ministry of their choice, whether it be the Music Ministry, Children's Ministry, New Member Ministry, etc. Actually, their next Church experience frequently occurs on the next Tuesday or Wednesday of the week they joined. I don't know how many Ministries we have but it is probably close to one hundred. Many of the Misitries have hundreds of members.I am involved in the Music Ministry, Theatre Ministry (I build scenery and serve as a stage hand for our holiday shows. If my knees could take the battering, I'd be on stage with the other actors and dancers.)

Now, How many people attend your church? What was the attendance last year? What was in 6 months ago? What was it last month? What was it last Sunday?

I can't answer all your questions, but I can give you some figures I know to be good.

Average weekly attendance this year: 7000

Number of members when the church started three years ago: 700

Last Sunday's attendance was about 2000 at the early service and 5500 in the main service.

We have had to seat families in the choir loft upon occasion when the church has had no more seats. We can't do that anymore because although we have expanded the choir loft twice, we are out of room again. Attendance at Choir practice is now over one hundred singers.

"How many have come forward in the last year and claimed they got saved?"

We should have those figures in a couple months but it should be about 2500, perhaps a little more. We started the year with 7000 members and it has grown very repidly in the past twelve months.

"Now, is your church bursting at the seams?"

Yikes!Yes!. We have built more parking lots, two more buildings and we still can't expand rapidly enough. For our bible study classes we have had to rent a local cineplex and we use every one of the screens (26). We have more bible study classes in the chapel as well as in a classrooms. I don't know what the Bible study attendance is but I would estimate about 4000 per week.

We currently are in a project to expand our current building by 3000 seats as those seats will be needed in the next 2 years. The building we are using now for our chapel will be replaced by a new very large chapel in the next 4 years or so. I have heard rumors that the original design for this new chapel has been 86'd and a new one is being drawn up that is much larger.

I didn't think so. "

See above....

250 posted on 08/20/2003 10:05:26 AM PDT by TexanToTheCore
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To: Theo
This almost seems to go to the point of portraying God as egotistical. Is it that simple, when dealing with the Trinity? The way I recall it... the Son glorifies the Father, and vice versa, in mutual love. Also the Spirit glorifies the Son, and the Father in the Son. None of the members of the Trinity glorify themselves in isolation.
251 posted on 08/20/2003 10:09:19 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck
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To: SpinnerWebb
We were told by the senior pastor not to play that song anymore ...

It is good for those in the worship team to submit to their pastoral team. I don't know about your particular circumstance, but it remains good that pastoral authority be respected, and for those in the worship team to humbly submit to that authority.

(The David Crowder Band is one of my favorites, by the way!!)

The senior pastor may have been wrong; I don't know. The point remains, though, that you and the other members of the worship team are *serving* the congregation, helping them engage the Lord in worship, serving under the pastoral team.

It's rough, sometimes, to submit when the pastor's judgment seems wrong, but it is good, and the Lord honors that humble submission.

252 posted on 08/20/2003 10:09:36 AM PDT by Theo
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To: HiTech RedNeck
It *does* sound weird, that God would be passionate about His glory. But *if* it's true that He is the most beautiful thing in existence, the pinnacle of perfection, the standard by which all things are to be judged, then it follows that He would acknowledge that He is these things. It is good for Him to be "jealous" (to use a biblical term) of His glory. And it is good for me to join Him in worshiping that glorious Being.

Yeah, it's a foreign concept, but how wonderful to get some insight into the mystery of God's high-and-exaltedness, His weightiness, His glory....

253 posted on 08/20/2003 10:14:42 AM PDT by Theo
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To: RaceBannon
I've read through about the first 100 posts so I'm going to jump in here .. I may be repeating something that's already been said.

Paul said I have become all things to all men that I might win some.

Is worship cheapened in an African village where people dance before the Lord in loin cloths. Is their music unspirtual because it consists of songs that are not translations of English language hymns written during the 3rd great awakening ... get of your high horse, who are you to judge another man's servant? We will never win the lost by waiting for them to conform to the culture of what members of a particular body think a church should be like. This first church was filled with the outcasts of their society.

A list of 67 tests to see if something is "right" ...g ive me a break. How about an intimate, ongoing, daily relationship with the One who loves me and a heart that is in His hand so that He "can turn it withersoever He will"

It never was and never will be about any list. Love the Lord your God with all your HEART and your neighbor as yourself ... ALL the law and the prophets are built on these 2 things.

Worship isn't about singing to the Lord (and certainly not about what is being sung) it is about the HEART attitude of the worshipper.

21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and His worshippers must worship in spirit and in truth."

254 posted on 08/20/2003 10:22:46 AM PDT by tx_eggman
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To: HiTech RedNeck
This almost seems to go to the point of portraying God as egotistical

The perfect Creator is the only being who is right to be egotistical, to exalt Himself above all....

Some quotes from Jonathan Edwards:

"God in seeking his glory seeks the good of his creatures, because the emanation of his glory ... implies the ... happiness of his creatures. And in communicating his fullness for them, he does it for himself, because their good, which he seeks, is so much in union and communion with himself. God is their good. Their excellency and happiness is nothing but the emanation and expression of god's glory."

"The love of God for sinners is not his making much of them, but his graciously freeing and empowering them to enjoy making much of him...."

255 posted on 08/20/2003 10:23:00 AM PDT by Theo
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To: SpinnerWebb
We were told that we didn't have to raise the money around here, and that donations dropped significantly when that song was played. To which my worship band leader replied "THAT's what it's all about". She left a few weeks later. You cannot tell me that the modern church is not about money. I live through that aspect of it every day. Jesus would throw 90% of the leaders out of every church were He here today, just as he did with the moneychangers of His time. THAT is the issue. The "church" is scared of losing it's monetary basis

You nailed it. If the body of christ didn't encumber itself with huge payrolls and mortgage payments, money wouldn't be the driving force. The resources of believers could be used to meet the needs of believers and to finance those known personally to be doing the work of proclaiming Christ to those who have not heard.

256 posted on 08/20/2003 10:25:16 AM PDT by fightinJAG
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To: Theo
Well, it's interesting that we do have a statement in the Bible that "God is [equivalency-verb] love." There is no analogous statement that "God is [equivalency-verb] glory." Could God be telling us that His love is even more important (towards us) than His glory? Which would meet the need of sinners who, until saved, can't do anything to glorify God at all.
257 posted on 08/20/2003 10:25:19 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck
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To: Theo
Edwards IIRC had some interesting theories about Satan. That this now-fallen angel was originally intended to be the savior of mankind, but since he dropped out of heaven, Jesus had to do the job.
258 posted on 08/20/2003 10:27:09 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck
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To: Theo
"The love of God for sinners is not his making much of them, but his graciously freeing and empowering them to enjoy making much of him...."

Does it have to be an "either-or" proposition? Sounds almost (Edwards, not God) like someone "proud of his humility."

259 posted on 08/20/2003 10:30:01 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck
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To: HiTech RedNeck
Edwards IIRC had some interesting theories about Satan. That this now-fallen angel was originally intended to be the savior of mankind, but since he dropped out of heaven, Jesus had to do the job.

Are we talking about the same Edwards? I'm talking about the Puritan author from the 1700s. I think there's another "Edwards" that's a weird cigar smoker who was on TV last decade.... If you are talking about the same Edwards that I'm thinking about, that *is* some strange doctrine. I'm not sure I'd believe he said it unless I read it somewhere....

260 posted on 08/20/2003 10:30:52 AM PDT by Theo
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