‘The Real Deal’ on women in Saudi

MSNBC ^ | 6-19-03 | Joe Scarborough

[JustPiper]

Held in Saudi Arabia against their will

COMMENTARY by Joe Scarborough

June 19 — American women and children continue to be held in Saudi Arabia against their will. The cream puffs at the State Department can call it what they want… but if it were our children trapped in a foreign land, we’d call it kidnapping.

WOMEN HAVE FEW rights in Saudi Arabia. Like the Taliban, our so-called Saudi allies prohibit women from leaving the country without their father and husband’s approval. Thirteen years ago, an American woman actually got kicked out of the U.S. embassy for having the nerve to escape there with her children. It seems the children’s father regularly beat the woman and children. Reports of other American women and children trapped in Saudi Arabia continue surfacing at an alarming rate — despite Prince Bandar’s September promise that no American women and children would be held in his kingdom against their will.

Well, today’s news made the Prince out to be a liar.

Watch Joe Scarborough on “Scarborough Country,” 10 p.m. ET, weeknights on MSNBC TV.

23-year-old Sarah Saga and her two children escaped to the U.S. embassy to get away from another abusive Saudi relationship. Miss Saga’s story is typically tragic: Her Saudi father kidnapped Ms. Saga when she was 6 years old and refused to return her to her American mother. Saga grew up and was forced to marry a Saudi man; she had two children, and then found herself trapped in an abusive relationship. Last month she tried to take her children home to America, but once again, the Saudis refused and offered Ms. Saga a Sophie’s Choice: your freedom or your children. Already facing death threats, Ms. Saga chose to escape Saudi soil and finally come home to American soil.

But the question remains. Why does our administration and Congress continue allowing the Saudis to kidnap our women and imprison our children? If Iran were to do such a thing, we would quickly declare war. It begs the question, is the pursuit of cheap oil really worth selling our nation’s soul? I think not.

And that, my friend, is the ‘Real Deal.’

[LPStar]

Your situation is not ideal, but it sounds like you are working to make the best of it for your sake and your daughter. It sounds like you have food and shelter and are relatively safe, so I hope you can make the best of it. Maybe if you have access to a computer, you can pick up some telecommuting work from the US. Please don't feel bad about using the welfare system - I am sure you'll be right back to work as quickly as you can. I'm sorry to hear of nasty Swedes, but I'm glad you are not stuck in an Arab hellhole country. Maybe consider writing a magazine article on this subject - more women should know what you have had to learn the hard way.

[river rat]

"Well, today’s news made the Prince out to be a liar.

Saudi Prince Bandar a liar! I'm shocked!

Actually, to be an Arab is to be a liar....
The Quran compells Muslims to lie to "infidels"....

Semper Fi

[Rutabega]

So true! (Thanks, by the way!) I am eating and have a nice-ish home, etc. The welfare thing gets under my skin, but, as my mom keeps telling me, they should be supporting me since they are making me stay here! (Could you send me a private reply about the telecommuting thing? I am clueless, and would be thrilled to find some work--my brain is frying from boredom!) And defininitely, thank goodness I am not in an Arab hellhole!!!!! I am thinking about magazine articles OFTEN (have a few of them written, but need more editing!) These other women are in a much worse situation than me, for sure. I can handle some people telling me off about US politics (they are pretty stupid people, and don't make up my core of friends!)

[happygrl]

LOL!

So nice of you to find this humourous.

[happygrl]

How many Arab families should we kill on Arab land because they and we don't agree on who should raise the children?

As many as necessaary to get our own citizens home.

[Proud2BeFree]

Your reply about women moving to another state really has nothing to do with it. In my case I moved out when I was beaten. I had attempted to work things out until that point but I will not stay and be a punching bag. (My policy - you get one punch then I'm out of there - violence can only get worse and I will NOT be hit.) Not good for me, not good for my daughter to see.

I think children need both parents. When you can't work things out both parents need to be in the children's lives. In this case, my Ex left the country under threat of deportation as a result of HIS own actions, not mine. He has CHOSEN not to be in touch with her for all these years. My issue here is my Ex holding the passport hostage and withdrawing my daughters residencing application.

[JustPiper]

Just keep telling yourself the Saudis are our friends

I know thats not directed to me right?

[Proud2BeFree]

Going to war isn't the right answer. I knew when I went to Egypt that I would be on my own in terms of getting out, and I did have contingency plans when things started going wrong. Egypt is not Saudi Arabia - I had pretty much free run of Cairo all day. If I had ever had to leave without being noticed I could have done so. I was NOT trapped in Egypt.

I was young and naive, and I had a good case of "can't happen to me syndrome" but I wasn't stupid! (OK maybe I was LOL)

I've said it many times - children are NOT a weapon. They are a gift from God and are to be loved and nurtured and taken proper care of - not pawns in some chess game because 2 people can't get along. I refuse to play that game. Ex has always had the ability to see our daughter. He has chosen not to. That's his loss.

But no I would NOT have expected the marines to come in and pluck us out of Cairo.

The Sarah Saga is different - she was taken to Saudi as a child, and somehow still managed to retain her sense of American identity. I don't blame her - I wouldn't leave my children either. I think she deserves our government to go to at least the same lengths the Cuban government did to get Elian Gonzalez back to his father.

But war - nope.

[JustPiper]

First let me tell you do not let the judgments of some Freepers opinions make you feel you have to answer for your choices! Being a true Christian, whether you attend church or not, means not passing judgement so put that one aside.

Next, I have to applaud you and give you all the compassion you deserve, because you have stuck it out for 'your' child! God Bless You!

I am so sick of this bureaucratic redtape garbage from INS and our country and I believe this is what we need to be concentraing on as true Freepers!

[JustPiper]

Sure we keep sending her to other Freeper's until we find a solution ;)

[Proud2BeFree]

Unfortunately taking my daughter to Egypt when she is 18 won't help - she would just be trapped. She would need permission of her husband or father to leave the country.

I did some research last night and the Private Green Card bill seems to be the most likely way to resolve this. I will start tomorrow contacting my congressman and senators and specifically asking about the private bill. What's funny is I've contacted them repeatedly about this problem but no one has brought that up as an option.

[JustPiper]

From your keyboard to God's ears ;)

[Mamzelle]

re: don't blame the victim?

First, you ought to notice who is creating the victimization--and it is very often the victim. There is a streak of masochism in many women, sometimes it's a mile wide. Neurotic women; violent men--a beautiful love affair in the making. Hang around an ER for a few years, and watch the women come in ..."Make him stop hitting me. I love him. Don't blame him, he can't help it..."

How they love to involve bystanders in their melodrama: they feed off people who like to play hero on their behalfs. That's what's happened to NRO and Mrs. O'Beirne and Mowbray. KB is enjoying the rush of playing champion. Believe me, I know of what I speak. I've been made the fool, too.

I took a long while to read over Roush's website--don't know if it's still up, but she was quite open about her long and miserable marriage and how many times she took back her Muslim husband. She even followed him to SA and donned the abaya--she barely got her daughter out that time--he was threatening to keep them all there. But she managed to get them out--only to take him back again once in the US.

Roush was very critical of the first Bush for having better sense than to play her champion. Strangely, she let Clinton off the hook for eight years. Then Bush the Younger is in power, and she can start her silly "he's ignoring me because of Haliburton" nonsense. This is a woman who seems most upset about her daughters when there's a Republican in the WH.

I also have met a few blondes who have gotten the Sheik Complex. They get dazzled by the romance, then expect someone less self-indulgent to clean up their messes. What exactly should we do, declare war on SA?

Perhaps that might be a good idea for some other reasons, but I'm not lauching a thousand ships for Pat Roush's face. Uh uh. Watch her find another jewel to hook up with--these women are serial victims.

Mowbray enjoys his status for taking on the State Department. I appreciate his contributions. But he and O'Beirne are Roush's fools.

[Mamzelle]

Gee, it's still up--go to "Pat's Story"

[Mamzelle]

re: that nasty/hateful "look"

I have heard it said now and then that just because someone looks ME doesn't mean he's an Islamic. But I'll bet you and I could tell the difference between a Hindu and a Muslim at fifty feet...

[af_vet_rr]

not directed at, at those who buy the government's line that they are our allies.

[hocndoc]

You find flaws in everyone, don't you? First Ms. Roush and then the very authors and sources you referred me to. I'm sure you'll criticize me for taking the time to write this long post, too. But, don't worry, it's not to rescue you or even Sarah Saga or Ms. Roush's daughters: I only want to inform, not to be a hero.

Ms. Roush has been fighting to free her daughtes for 17 to 18 years, according to one article from the source which you called on, the NRO. I didn't read anywhere that she was "pretty quiet" during Clinton's administration or anything that leads me to believe that she has any agenda other than gaining freedom for her daughters.

I disagree with your assessment of abused women. And, if I say so myself, I'm qualified to disagree with you, since I have a special interest in the subject of intimate partner and domestic violence. I've worked as a volunteer with abused women and children, even before I became a doctor or a member of the President's Advisory Committee on Violence Against Women.

The dynamics of abusive relationships are not as simple as you make them out to be. Even smart, take charge, definitely non-neurotic and non-masochistic women can find themselves in an abusive relationship. It sounds like Ms. Roush followed a common pattern before she finally cut off relationships with her husband. Even so, she is in no way responsible for his actions.

And as to the marriage, read Rutabega's first post, again. She was terrified that she would be criticized more for the failed marriage than supported for trying to keep her daughter.

Women are trained from infancy that we are second class to men and that we should make a marriage work no matter what. Some women figure out that violence and lack of respect is a form of adultery because these acts violate the marriage vows, but few do. Within the year, one poster on a Christian forum who was adamant that the only scriptural justification for a divorce is actual adultery, asked "How bad was the abuse?" when challenged on whether a woman should divorce her husband for mollesting their daughter. This is the attitude I've seen all my life. Fortunately, I married a good man.

Abusers are charming and cunning and talented at getting their way. They manipulate the emotions and ingrained conditioning of their victims. Contrary to popular belief, they don't lose control,and the women aren't practicing what you call "marital masochism." Instead the abusers are very much in control in order to use power and violence to gain more power and manipulate. Instead, they choose safe subjects to focus their power games on. If they were truly out of control, they'd get in trouble with other people besides their wives, girlfriends, and children. They'd be in jail.

Women raised in the United States have no idea about the conditions they will encounter in Arab nations. We have no experiences with slavery or being true chattel. We are used to the idea of equal rights and justice under the law, even if we don't always experience it. Read the article posted in message 29 of this thread
http://www.meforum.org/article/520
about the experiences of women who move to Saudi Arabia. The compromises build up to avoid harrassment and confrontation and, probably, because they love their husbands and want to please them and not embarass them.

Abuse is abuse. Intimate partner and domestic violence is like rape, it's not sex, it's not loss of control, and it's not normal. It's all about power and control for the abuser.

Many caregivers get burned by victims and even get burned out. I had to stop doing sexual assault exams at one time because I was getting so angry at my patients and the lives they led that seemed to be to blame for their problems (and getting me out in the middle of the night when I was on call). However, there is never a justification for blaming the victim when she has made the decision to get out of an abusive situation. You don't have to believe her or trust her. Our only duty is to make sure she is safe. In the case of these citizens in another country with a history of human rights abuses, the State Department has the duty to support them and get them out of harm's way.

[Mamzelle]

I watched Roush on interview, and have followed her for a while. It'd be a good idea to read her own account of her life.

Roush criticized the first Bush, and criticized the second. I have yet to find any word on criticizing Clinton, and her daughters remained in SA during his admin. The conclusion I draw, that she has some personal animus with the Bushes, is not unreasonable. The notion that she can't get help because of their family oil connections reads high on the meter in that regard.

Notice *I* am not dragging Rutabega into this, you are--you might notice my response to her. Your attempt to make Roush's issue one about Rutabega is spurious. I have no intention of making her the subject, but you seem to find her predicament rhetorically *useful* in the context of trying to prove your point.

re: Even smart, take charge, definitely non-neurotic and non-masochistic women can find themselves in an abusive relationship. )))

I'm sure you can find some. But you can find career victims, too. It would behoove the wise professional to behave with some healthy distrust. Would that I had, rather than fall into the trap of trying to "help" someone who was playing out a melodrama of her own making. re: Abusers are charming and cunning and talented at getting their way. They manipulate the emotions and ingrained conditioning of their victims. You said a mouthful--only it works both ways. And the helper can find himself the victim as well. Once, anyway.

[FITZ]

Thanks for that link. Very interesting. Anyone going into an international marriage needs to go in with their eyes open. To expect you can do whatever you wish and then demand a rescue by our government is absurd. It also does seem quite interesting that these cases which were going on under Clinton only suddenly became important enough to expect Bush to intervene.

[FITZ]

It kind of reminds you of the "homeless" who seem to find good homes when there is a democrat in office but their sad pitiful tales come back to life when there is a republican. Sarah was taken years ago but now her sad fate is all the fault of G.W. Bush. It was okay to be a woman in Saudi during Clinton's 8 years.