Also note this chart of 'penetration depth,' which is half of range (round trip).
Without more forward basing, it couldn't even reach Maine on a round trip.
Posted on 06/16/2003 6:15:57 PM PDT by AveMaria
This is a nightmare scenario targetted towards all of you World War Two history buffs.
About a week ago, a statue of Eisenhower was unveiled at the Capitol in DC, honoring President Eisenhower in his army uniform. In a speech commemorating that occassion, Bob Dole asked the audience to consider what would have happened if Ike had failed in his crusade. Is there a possibility that Hitler would have managed to take advantage of political, regional, and ethnic divisions in America in the 1940s, and defeated good old USA?
It certainly would not have been possible for Hitler to stage a successful naval invasion across the Atlantic to take the Eastern Seaboard, irrespective of whether or not America succeded in Europe. He simply did not have a Navy that was large enough for that task.
I considered various ways in which the Germans would have defeated America, assuming that they had succeeded in their mission to conquer the Soviet Union:
1. They might have attempted to conquer Alaska, based on their ability to control Siberia and the arctic regions of Russia. From there, they would have rolled over poorly defended Canada, from which they would have launched a massive invasion from the sparsely populated North-Western US.
2. Using the historic grievances that Mexico has, especially over territorial loss in the 1848 war, Hitler could have encouraged the Mexicans to stage a massive military invasion from the South (something similar to what their illegals are already doing). Given that many South Americans had pro-axis fascist feelings during the war, Brazil and Argentina could have send their own armies as well, to support the Mexicans. And, considering that Latin America continued to trade with Germany in the war years, Germany would have been able to move massive armaments and troops to South America, support an invasion from Mexico. As a reward, Mexico would have been rewarded with the return of California, New Mexico and Arizona. The rest of South America would have had a chance to be freed from American regional dominance that has existed since the Monroe Doctrine.
3. Hitler could have reached out to the anti-FDR right-wing, the likes of Charles Lindberg, Henry Ford, Rev. Charles Coughlin, and their many followers who were influential in the America First Movement. He could have used the resentment that Irish-Americans and German-Americans had for Anglo elites who wanted to save Britain, a nation that many in both groups disliked (I am Irish myself, and I am aware about how many Irishmen resented going to help Britain. The Republic of Ireland made a conscious decision to stay neutral in the war to the very end).
4. Germany could have offered the South a second chance. If the South militarily supported the defeat of the Yankees, they could get back the Confederate States of America. The CSA would have been a fully independent right-wing nation that was allied to Germany, like Franco's Spain. They would have been allowed to preserve their system of segregation, a system that Germans approved of.
5. In the 1940s, Eugenics was highly favored by both liberal and conservative elites in New England. American race scientists like H. Goddard, Carl Bingham, Madison Grant, and Lothrop Stoddard were standard readings in the school system in Nazi Germany. A shared interest in race issues would have brought the Nazis and the New England Eugenicists together.
A combination of all those forces would have overwhelmed the FDR administration.
I have read those arguments. The problem is that they fail to realize that Imperial Germany was not West Germany. A German victory would have been the victory of German political culture at its very worst. A victory for Germany at it's most goose stepping, authoritarian, bullying, swaggering, and militaristic. A victorious Germany would have looted the conquered nations for Germany's benefit and been universally hated. Imperial Germany had no conception whatsoever that other peoples had rights or feelings.
And as I keep saying, a project as costly as the Manhattan Project could only have been pitched to the political leadership by scientists who were confident that they would not be shot if they failed. So a Soviet atom bomb was clearly out of the question until Stalin saw that the Americans had one and demanded that his scientists produce one... or else.
That's completely unsourced, and he probably didn't say it (just as he didn't say "I fear that we have awakened a sleeping giant, and filled him with a terrible resolve"). I can only trace that quote to a few RKBA websites; even then the attribution varies, sometimes to Yamamoto, once to Genda or Fuchida, and once to Raizo Tanaka--probably the IJN's best surface tactician, but a man who would have been singularly uninvolved in planning an invasion of America (he was too busy actually fighting battles).
Japan never seriously contemplated an invasion of the United States because of logistics issues, not because of the 2nd Amendment.
What you said.
I know a certain cut and paster on FR that uses this term continually. Scary.
This was Leo Szilard's argument. Of course, he lost the argument.
Is that some kind of accusation of anti-Semitism? I've made it quite clear that I am giving these men credit, not blame. This isn't some kind of game of 'spot the Jew' that anti-Semites like to play. I am merely making a point about historical irony: Hitler was so blinded by hatred that he chased off the very scientists who would have given him the ultimate weapon.
Don't you dare imply I'm anti-Semitic...you couldn't be further from the truth.
Many of these replies are interesting. Considering the occupation of USSR if the Nazis had succeeded. I always saw the main problem the Nazis had with Russia was the Death Head units that followed their army, wiping out the civilian population. From what I read on the subject, the Russians at first welcomed the Nazis as liberators from Communism. Once the Death Head units started wiping them out, it seemed that staying alive under Communism was a lot better than dying under Nazism. Considering the question of occupying forces, had the Nazi war machine used the local population better, that problem would have been solved. However, amongst the documents I mentioned above were plans to execute the entire Russian population. Therefore, the Nazis had in mind to exterminate over 180 million people – a testimonial to true evil – and instead of waiting they attempted to implement their plans immediately.
Here is a thought I have had along this same topic but involving the Japanese. When they attacked Pearl Harbor, it seemed that it was meant as a shot across our bow – a warning to back off in the Pacific. What would have happened had the Japanese modified their plans? What would have happened had they planned an invasion of California a week after Pearl? Could the Japanese managed to take and hold onto California? Remember, at the time of the attack, the United States military was fifth rate at best. The Germans and the Japanese had experienced soldiers, they had better equipment – planes, ships, torpedoes, etc.
The fortunes of war seem to turn on luck. Nazi Germany was bogged down in Russia when they deviated from their war plans and went after the oil fields instead of going straight to Moscow. They started killing the local population instead of using them to their advantage. Our carriers were at sea when the Japanese attacked and so we had a minor edge. What would have happened had our carriers been in port and were sunk like the Battleships? History is full of what ifs? I believe it was Pat Buchanan that mentioned a big what if – what if the USA had stayed out of WW I. Let’s say that Germany won. Without the bitter taste of defeat in the mouth and not being under the heals of Europe, would a Socialist party had risen in Germany? Without that feeling of government betrayal, a paper hanger with an Iron Cross perhaps may not have risen up to be Germany’s leader. No Nazi’s. No Holocaust. No death camps. No WW II. Was it not WW I that forced a ridiculous disarmament treaty on the United States. Perhaps, perhaps not. It’s nice and fun to discuss it though.
Let us also remember one other thing about Nazi Germany. Hitler, Goebbels, Himmler, and the rest were just the first generation of Nazi lunatics. Does anyone remember Reinhardt Heydrich? He was the Nazi poster boy – tall, chiseled looks, blonde, and totally sociopathic. Fortunately, he was assassinated back in 1943. What if he had lived, the Nazis not defeated and he became Chancellor? Like I said, fun to think about.
One last thing. Two books came out years ago that was similar as this thread. One was SS:GB by Len Deighton. Basically a murder mystery set in Great Britain during the Nazi occupation. I never thought this was plausible because Germany was only a European power while Great Britain was a world power. If Great Britain was under threat of being occupied, they would have pulled everything out of every country to defend the homeland. The other book – made into a HBO movie – was about that Nazi Germany fought us to a standstill and by 1961; they occupied the position the Soviets had.
Also note this chart of 'penetration depth,' which is half of range (round trip).
Without more forward basing, it couldn't even reach Maine on a round trip.
What if instead of a direct invasion, Hitler simply sent agents to infiltrated our college campus', hijacked our media with socialist bias, sent teachers into our primary education system, and took over one of our major political parties??
What if he created spin slogans so simple that even the simplest minds could comprehend the propagandist slogans like "All the Votes should count" or "No Oil for Blood"?
What if, instead of a direct invasion, Hitler simply instilled sympathy for terrorism against the Jews of the world?
What if he manipulated the UN to place his satellite countries on Human Rights organizations?
What if he turned the entire world against America for simply trying to defend itself?
Come to think of it--are we sure the Nazi's lost W.W.II?
A penetration depth chart of the Me 264 from May 12, 1944 Note: penetration depth equals half range....
And from this I presumed that the maximum line indicates the furthest the plane could fly on one fueling, indicating to me that the range would have to be roughly half that distance, which to me doesn't seem to reach even Maine.
I'd love to be corrected on this if I'm wrong. Like you, I'm just here to learn. :o)
99% of all so called quotes are excerpts taken out of context or simply fabrications. What's important is...their propaganda value. And this one is just dripping with it.
So your next assignment, since you have so much time on your hands, is to find out just who said it first, why they said it, and what they were trying to do.
After that, you can do three laps around your desk with your dog in hot pursuit.
The simplest would have been not to invade Russia. Russia would have fallen apart in another five years, and he oculd have simply picked up the pieces.
The second would have been to ignore the battleship admirals, and give Doenitz the 300 ocean-going U-boats he wanted in preparation for the war with England. That would have starved England into submission by 1940. Or, he could have built a dozen small to medium sized aircraft carriers to accompany the wolfpacks onto the Atlantic. The submarines would have prevented British gunships from approaching the carriers and messerschmidts flying from the carriers would have prevented escort destroyers or allied aircraft from approaching the subs.
The third obvious move would have been to listen to Galland and Speer and make fighter cover over Germany the top military priority, and build the jet fighters in numbers in 39 and 40.
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