Posted on 06/11/2003 9:49:05 AM PDT by hsmomx3
Edited on 05/07/2004 5:21:23 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
Contrary to union propaganda, teachers are not underpaid. I say this as someone with 28 years of experience in conducting salary surveys and designing pay plans.
According to data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, local elementary school teachers earn about the same average pay on an hourly basis as local reporters ($23.74). They also earn more than microbiologists ($20.60), zoologists ($17.36) and accountants ($22.49). Secondary school teachers even earn more per hour than civil engineers.
(Excerpt) Read more at azcentral.com ...
I think you'd be surprised - I'm surprised there aren't more parents speaking out against poor education, but I'd bet (sadly) you'd get more of them protesting a strict dress code.
No, you've been quite civil...I just thought y'all would be interested in seeing the "official" rule.
WOW! It makes you wonder why there is a teacher shortage doesn't it?
They claim the teaching program here (Northern Kentucky University) is 2 years. That might be possible if you did your Bachelors there and planned things well. The program is 85 credit hours (21 of those are English dept, mostly literature classes.)
I did my BS 12 years ago at a different school and had to spend one semester fulfilling General Ed requirements.
I'd imagine those issues have the support of Administrators. Bucking the Administration and challenging "the system" is likely not too popular. How much can one change the system by being fired?
Administrators and teachers have separate unions, at least in CA. It's kept that way for just the reason you described. Administrators can't be present at any teacher's union meetings, either.
Teachers with tenure can speak out as much as they like without fear of being fired. There are worse things that can happen to you than being fired. Admins who still have it in for a teacher they don't like can still try to make things rough on them, but it would be difficult if the teacher were actually a part of the union, since an Admin really does not want to have a file full of grievances filed against him/her.
One reason why teachers in LAUSD threatened to strike three years ago was because the state had sent them earmarked money for a $10,000 raise for each teacher. (That would push starting pay for a credentialed teacher up to $36,000 at the time, in an area where you need at least $300,000 to buy a 1200 sq. foot house, and you will still be commuting for an hour, so it would still not exactly be living high on the hog.) The state did this in an effort to encourage emergency credentialed teachers to get their credentials, and to try to retain teachers, since over half quit within the first 5 years.
Anyway, the teachers were told that year that there would be no raises or step increases due to lack of funds. The district literally had already spent the money on redecorating the enormous downtown offices. Complete with mahogany desks for anyone in the brass. THAT is why the teachers were so upset in that case, and I don't blame them.
Teachers in private schools need no certification or education. That means there is a much larger pool of people to choose from. If a student is terrible, you send him to the principal, and he gets kicked out unless he is related to the principal, the teachers, or has a lot of money in a small community. You have much smaller class sizes, parents who care about their students and check their homework, and special needs students don't have to be accepted. The lower pay seems like a good trade-off to many people.
Perhaps higher salaries isn't the solution to fixing the public education system.
I agree with you on that. I'm still not going back to teaching in any districts where there are drive-by alarms or teachers are regularly physically assaulted by parents, though. It's not worth any amount of money.
I also know people who teach in private schools because they want their children to attend those schools, and can't afford the tuition without the faculty discount.
The reasons they don't want their children attending the public schools vary from religious, to academic, to just not wanting their children to attend school with "children who haven't been raised properly".
One problem - some teachers, particularly in the lower grades, are not as qualified as the ones those of us "of a certain age" had when we were in school. Women's lib is partially to blame for this. When I was a child, many women still stayed home, but most women who worked were domestic help, store clerks, secretaries, nurses, or teachers - with nursing and teaching being the 'most prestigious' of those professions. By the time I was in college, women were being urged not to be teachers, because they "could be so much more".
There are still bright women who become teachers because they really want to teach, but there are many women who would have become teachers 40 years ago and are now becoming lawyers, accountants, engineers, etc.
Next, standards have been lowered. This is also a complicated problem. In some areas, the lowering of standards has been blamed on integration, and it's true that in some areas, if too many minority students failed, lawsuits were filed blaming this on latent discrimination. I think a larger problem might be the "Dr. Spock" child-raising mentality, which worries too much about a child's "self-esteem" and too little about the child's actual competence. In any case, it's resulted in social promotion and other problems which have lowered the effectiveness of the educational system.
Related to that is the loss of discipline in the public schools. When I was a student, the biggest classroom problems I recall were students chewing gum and passing notes. I don't recall many - if any - students being openly disruptive or disrespectful in class. In many schools today, that's quite common.
I think part of this is related to education now being compulsory. In the past, students who didn't want to be in school would go to work on the family farm or get another job. Those generally aren't options today, and I've had a number of students who weren't doing well in school and didn't care to be in school, but their parents wanted them to be there - for reasons ranging from keeping them off the streets (glorified babysitting) to that the parents realized the students did need an education if they wanted a chance at a decent job.
I'm of the opinion that the German model is a good one - students who show no aptitude or interest in an academic education after 8th grade are sent to apprenticeships or other job training after that point, and only those who are interested in school continue to high school. Every time that's suggested here, though, it's seen as the government wanting to run the lives of our children, and I can see that viewpoint too.
It would help if "education" courses in the colleges were completely revamped and the curriculum, particularly for elementary & middle grades education, beefed up considerably. I've seen college students in elementary education classes who were struggling to do math at a 6th grade level - how well are they going to teach it?
I've mentioned earlier that although there's been much research done in which methods work best in teaching, we continue to implement "new" methods which are generally old methods which have been proven not to work - or to be flawed - under new names. I don't know if this is because educrats don't pay any attention to the history of education, because someone wants to sell new textbooks, or some sort of combination, but it does happen.
I've left out parents filing suit against school districts which were trying to implement strict disciplinary and academic policies, and I could probably go on & on, but those are basic points...what do you think?
I would not want to put my own children in public education. My child could have many great teachers, but it would only take one or two bad ones early on to screw things up. I went through public education, but I started out in it already knowing how to read and knowing how to educate myself. See, when my mom noticed me teaching myself to write at age 4, she thought maybe she should teach me how to read, too. I was lucky to have two educated parents who care about kids and education. They are both public school teachers, by the way, and they are the ones that parents beg to have their kids get. The school system has major problems, #1 being that there are too many beauracrats. My mom's district gets title one money, so she's gotten new desks, carpet, and cupboards twice in the past 5 years. Meanwhile, by April I do not have lined paper in my classroom.
Money by itself is not the answer, because it is mis-spent so often. When money is added to education, it's always added at the top and on frivolous things. When it's taken away, it's taken away at the bottom. At my last district, they added a big fat raise for the superintendent, bought all new textbooks to replace the ones that are four years old, and bought other useless technological junk that almost no teachers will use and that will be outdated in two years. Meanwhile, teachers took a $5000 pay cut, aides were cut out totally, and parents are supposed to be charged $300 a kid for bussing next year. If I had three kids, that would be $100 a month just for them to ride the bus a mile to school. When I've already been taxed to death to pay for public schooling. Another school district already started charging for bussing, then had it struck down in court on the grounds that schools are required to provide a free education, but that didn't stop my old district from trying it themselves. How much money will be wasted on that lost-cause legal defense?
Secondly, what do you see as the solution?
Smaller class sizes are effective only with certain groups. They cut them out in K in my mom's district because it wasn't working and they didn't want to spend the money on it any more. Good for them. I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater, but class sizes should be evaluated and changed based on need.
The educational system's real failure is towards the top students. They are almost always left to their own devises. If you go back over scores over the past years, the average kids are still scoring the same as they were a long time ago. The low kids are pretty much at the same spot. The high kids, though, have dropped. That's what pulls the average score down, the loss of the top of the curve. Public education is not challenging and pushing the top kids to meet their potential.
Some people tout vouchers as the solution. Not totally. The problem is that when "private" school start accepting "public" money, they start losing options as to who they can turn away. They wind up with the same behavior problems and lack of student success, since the kids just change schools. If vouchers are done correctly, they have a chance at working. If not, then they don't.
Now teachers have to be certified... ...they have to "teach to the tests" (?!).
US curriculum is an inch deep and a mile wide. We should take a cue from a system that works and use their curriculum. Teach addition in first grade. Drill it in until they can't ever forget it. Teach subtraction in second. And so on and so forth. I use the drill-and-kill methods in my classroom and blow the socks off the other classes in terms of what my kids learn and retain. Of course I also use many different methods to make sure that kids understand what they're doing, so that if they make a mistake, they will catch it. Other teachers are being "good" and following exactly what the books say to do now. The books are wrong. Very few kids can spend two days on double digit multiplication and be expected to use it to mastery. That's what they have in my teaching book, though.
I do believe that letting a kid go all the way through the school system and then springing an exit exam on him is unfair. We have passed him along that whole way, telling him he is passing, so it is unfair to change the rules all of the sudden. Exams should be phased in and there should be one at each grade level. You don't pass, you don't go on, after third grade. K, 1st and 2nd grades should be subject to review, since testing is unreliable for young kids. Sometimes they just don't feel like taking a test. Their bird died or they got yelled at for leaving the cap off the toothpaste, so they just fill in bubbles. It happens.
At the same time teachers ... claim they're powerless to make any changes
Teachers in my old district sure had a lot of power this year when they took a $5000 pay cut, didn't they? Teachers with brains are kept out of decision making processes. Positions, after all, are appointed. They only let in people who go with the flow and approve of using district money for personal vacations.
Similarly, now that we have complusary public education
I don't believe in compulsory education. I also think we should use tracking and vocational training for those kids who aren't interested in higher education. College was never supposed to be for everyone. There's no shame in being a construction worker, and I know ones that make six figures. More power to them. It looks like a fun job to drive tractors and ditch-diggers. Better than having some irate parent storm onto the school grounds punch you in the face during recess. (Never happened to me, but I've seen it happen. I HAVE had a drunk parent come to Open House. My very large husband was in the room with me, so the guy went over to his son's teacher and proceeded to pick a fight with him, wanting to go outside and such. The other teacher is on a kidney transplant list!)
should be limited to key skills children need to be productive citizens.
Schools are mostly already concentrating on key skills. That's what happens in practice. The problem is that they give kids little smatterings of the skills without ever really demanding mastery.
Kids also will not grow up to be productive if they do not have a good work ethic and morals, and those need to be taught at home. Schools have no business telling kids what kind of people to be, except for keeping things civil and nice at school. I play counselor and mom far too often because of lazy and poor parenting.
I learned everything that I needed to be a good citizen by the 8th grade
I read about a book a day during high school. During class. If not for playing sports, I could have just stayed home and read those books. I did have a few quality teachers that taught well, however.
we still have people exiting this system (and not on the low end either) who can't
There are kids who couldn't perform basic skills no matter how much help you gave them. Part of the problem with compulsory education is that it forces these kids to go to school when it's really a drain on the average and high kids. It's sad, but there's just only so much time and money to go around, and I'd rather spend it on the places where it will do the most good.
taxes to pay for education are so high that both parents have to work
No, we've upped our standard of living so much that both parents "have" to work.
One?
If most teachers are good people who want what is best for kids then there would be thousands, millions? Not one. Hardly a thing administrators could do.
I believe anyone who won't see the real problems in the public schools is by nature a soicalist. I do not mean that in the name calling sense, I mean that in the defination sense. It defies rational thought to believe otherwise.
I believe the main issue is that that the liberals have had contol of the schools, and they have edged their way into every nook and cranny of "education". As a result we have young people who have spent their entire lives being "educated " with the liberal's propaganda. The people who feel comfortable with the approach continue on and pay college tution for more, and then continue to get teaching degrees to use in public schools. ( Ie: Black history month, heather has two mommies, sex ed, pink triangle zones)
These young people may think they are centrists or moderate, or conservatives. However, the whole structure they support is by nature socialist. Public schools were started by socailists for socailist purposes. In the begining parents maintained control over their children by implementing teachings after school through moral, ethical and religious teachings.
One of the problems is that the agenda has been too effective. Parents ,by the millions , now believe the NEA knows what is best ,and have handed complete control of their children over to a politically motivated group.
IMO, Teachers can only have an infalated sense of worth in a system lke this, but the catch is they have no control over how to raise the children they have been handed. The NEA controls everything. The unions want control for power and money. Just like any other soicalist group, they mask the drive for power and control in a package that looks like benefits for the poor and helpless. ( ie: children) The teachers are the pawns. They allow themselves to be pawns.
It takes a special gift to be a great teacher, not everyone who has a degree in teaching has this gift. What many of these people have is an ability to follow the rules, memorize data and control kids. That is really what is needed in the public schools. However, some of these people are civil servants to the taxpayer and puppets for the NEA. They should expect to be trated fairly, they should not expect to be treated like kings and queens.
I really believe young people interested in educating others do not ever support the NEA ,in any way or fashion. I see and hear alot of teachers here saying they don't support the NEA, then attack anyone sho says anything negative about the NEA. It is confusing and every bit part of the problem with public schools.
What is a young person with a gift and passion for teaching supposed to do? They need to make a choice, take their gifts and market them , like any business person, or go teach at a private school. They need to be free of the NEA and get their own insurance. They could have their own children and homeschool them ,or start a private school. They could run for political office and change the system, or they take a job at a public school and understand they have to do the best they can within the limits they are given. There are numerous avenues to explore. Of course it is much harder to solve the problem and be self sufficent, than it is to take the "path most followed". It seems to me that a good deal of teachers today don't understand that the world is tough place for everyone, they have it pretty good compared to many of us when, considering the amount of pay, the benefits, the vacation and the hours they put in on the job.
The complaining and entitlements need to stop.
I feel confident in my own abilities and in the abilities of many of the teachers in our nation, and so was saddened to read insults such as "those who can, do; those who can't, teach." I can honestly say that I have chosen teaching thoughtfully and because I want to apply my talents and love for children in order to help them reach their potential. I am ambitious and intelligent and am pursuing this career because I believe it is where I can make the most meaningful contribution in the world. My teaching classes are in-depth and cover extensive research on child psychology, classroom management, content, to name just a few areas of focus. I challenge anyone who believes that teachers glide through college without becoming true professionals to take a class like Educational Psychology. Educate yourself before you make a judgment, and only then can your assessment really be taken seriously. And, one question: why aren't you all making a bee-line to get your teaching certifications, asap? You describe this professions as if it were your own dream job: all too many vacations, overpaid, time to socialize, etc. So, go for it!!! (And try not to mind those who belittle your profession). Look, I'm not going to continue with the sarcasm. I challenge you all to educate yourselves about the profession (and education does NOT include political articles or weblogs...) objectively. Take off your red-hot-angry political lenses for a minute and give some credit to those who are or plan to work as hard as they can to educate America's children in the most professional manner possible. Don't make generalizations. I'm a person who is genuinely motivated to help kids be the best they can be, so when I read some of these comments, I felt momentarily discouraged. Some have even belittled this ideal to help others, making it seem like it is a sham or a ploy. Some might say I shouldn't care, but I do care about the percieved integrity of my profession. I do care that many parents will judge me before meeting me, instead of approaching me as an individual. And I care that our country is torn apart by political hatred on both sides, and that neither of the extreme poles of ideology seem to be objective. It seems that many people use politics as a way to vent hatred. So, anyways, thanks for allowing me a spot on your weblog. My intent is not to make anyone's blood boil, but to offer a different view. Wish everyone here the best, really...
I can tell you right now that public school teachers make GREAT money — money that they do NOT deserve! I live in Ohio and some teachers make around $98,000! Granted, that’s in the range of a teacher who has taught for many years. But nevertheless....how can anyone making that much money and working only 9 months (or less) claim that they have it bad? Teachers whine and complain and then don’t work half as much as anyone else. The best way to send a message to these high priced, glorifeid babysitters (yes, I said it!) is to VOTE DOWN ALL SCHOOL LEVIES! Send the teachers a message that we are FED UP with their salaries that they don’t deserve.My solution would be to close ALL public schools, homeschool or private school your kids, and let the teachers get a taste of what it’s really like to have a real job! DOWN WITH PUBLIC SCHOOLTEACHERS!
In my school district, the required work day is 7:30-4:00. That is 8 1/2 hours. However, no decent teacher is able to come at 7:30 and leave at 4:00. Most of us come to work by 7 a.m. and leave after 6 p.m. We also don’t work 9 months of the year, as most people feel we do. We start work in late August, and work until early June. And that is just with our students in our classrooms. Starting in mid-July, I have been in my classroom 5 days a week for at least 6 hours a day preparing for a new class of students. Add that to required workshops in the summer, and all of the work that teachers take home every night, ask anyone who has actually seen a teacher operating in the classroom, and they will tell you that not only do teachers not work a “6-hour day”, but that it is closer to 10. We also do not “get an hour for lunch” as you stated. Our students get 30 minutes. By the time you walk your students through the lunch lines, get them seated, and help them with their meal, you have 20 minutes, tops. Do some research before you go slamming hard-working teachers.
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