Posted on 06/10/2003 7:37:43 AM PDT by Pokey78
WASHINGTON - President Bush scolded Israel on Tuesday for a helicopter attack on a senior Hamas leader that killed a bystander and a bodyguard, warning that such a strike "does not contribute to the security of Israel."
The strike came less than a week after Bush launched the "road map" toward Middle East peace he helped craft at a summit with Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas.
"The president is deeply troubled by the strike of helicopter gunships that reportedly killed at least two persons and wounded 20 others," White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said. "The president is concerned that this strike will undermine efforts by Palestinian authorities to bring an end to terrorist attacks, and it does not contribute to the security of Israel."
Abbas denounced the helicopter strike as a "criminal and terrorist" Israeli attack, and asked the United States to intervene.
Bush said after the summit in Aqaba, Jordan, last week that he would seek to keep the parties on the path to peace if he saw them straying. The prepared statement issued from Fleischer's lectern seemed to be in keeping with that.
"What's important in this new environment is for Palestinians and Israelis to find ways to work together on the path to peace," Fleischer said. "This is going to require both the Palestinian Authority and Israel to find new ways to protect the road map so it can advance to face terrorism."
"In looking at the progress that must be made for the road map and looking at this attack, the president is deeply troubled by it," Fleischer said.
The White House has often tempered such warnings to Israel by emphasizing that "Israel has a right to defend itself," and Fleischer repeated that language Tuesday.
But, he added: "Israel has to act on that right in a manner that is consistent with larger objectives, and in this case the president views this as deeply troubling."
In the attack Tuesday, Israeli helicopters fired missiles at a car carrying Abdel Aziz Rantisi, the most high-profile political leader of the Islamic militant group Hamas to be targeted by Israel in 32 months of fighting. Rantisi said he jumped out of his car when he heard the choppers overhead. He was injured and underwent surgery.
After the attack, Hamas threatened revenge "that will be like an earthquake."
"We will continue with our holy war and resistance until every last criminal Zionist is evicted from this land," Rantisi told the Arab TV satellite station Al-Jazeera from his hospital bed.
Abbas accused Israel of trying to destroy the "road map" plan to get out of its commitments.
At the same time, Israeli troops dismantled 10 tiny, uninhabited settlement outposts in the West Bank overnight, in line with the first requirements of the peace plan.
But the road map also says Israel must refrain from actions that undermine trust. It does not specifically rule out the targeted killings of Palestinian militants.
Israel said after its acceptance of the plan last month that it would from now on reserve the practice of targeted killings to "ticking bomb" scenarios, as a last means of preventing attacks on Israelis.
One more time, I've made no baseless charges. I spoke the truth and you have problem with that. Too bad.
Sorry, you don't scare me or impress me either, but I bet your a big hit at home. I think if anyone actually takes the time to read your last diatribe and your previous outbursts on this thread, they will see whose really shooting off their mouth. Here's a clue, its not me. Your last response didn't cover any new ground and was boring, emotional, incoherent and quite excessive. But that's nothing new for you. Typical D1 rant.
Like I said, you cast no blame, fault or responsibility on Israel for anything. In your mind, they're as pure as the wind driven snow. Well, I've got news for you, you're wrong. Today, Israel engaged in an overly aggressive military response, during a critical time. Israel is well aware that PresBush is attempting to kick start a legitimate peace process, but still they couldn't abide by the agreement they made just last week. And you fully supported todays actions, wholeheartedly. While the Pali's and their buddies in Hamas, Hezbollah and Isalmic Jihad are the original instigators, at this point Israel is just as culpable.
I said this earlier and I'll say it one more time, for your edification. It's obvious you don't want peace in the Middle East. You've made that abundantly clear from your angey and meanspirited screed, or should I say temper tandrum. Personally, I think you're pathetic. I pity you.
Well I'm sure you'd love to make baseless charges on the forum without having them outed for what they are, but sadly you won't get that when dealing with me as a general rule. You could have had that happen this time, but you couldn't resist shooting your mouth off. Smart move on your part.
One more time, I've made no baseless charges. I spoke the truth and you have problem with that. Too bad.
Okay let's review some of your charges.
The fact PresBush condemns Israel for comitting this specific attack, is important to keep his appearence of being an honest broker in the ME.
Barbara Streisand! The peace process is dead until the terrorist organizations swear off blowing up Israeli citizens. Bush is just doing damage to himself at this point.
Anyone with half a brain knows the US is Israel's friend and ally.
To the contrary, anyone with half a brain would never demand that a friend avail themselves to personal destruction without trying to protect themselves.
PresBush is attempting to assist Israel in finally securing an end to all hostilites.
Barbara Streisand! How does demanding that Israel take terrorist attack after terrorist attack without defending themselves further peace? What peace? The terrorist organizations have rejected peace and sworn to destroy Israel. Bush at this point is simply demanding that Israel let them.
If you think killing all the Palis is the answer, your wrong.
I never made any indication that I wished any Palestinians killed.
Pal, you wouldn't recognize a baseless charge if it bit you on the nose. There are numerous instances of this brainless commentary emitting from what passes for your brain. I'm not going to list them all.
Sorry, you don't scare me or impress me either,
Scare you? Frankly the thought never occurred to me.
but I bet your a big hit at home.
As a matter of fact I am. At least on this issue you are right.
I think if anyone actually takes the time to read your last diatribe and your previous outbursts on this thread, they will see whose really shooting off their mouth.
I responded to each of your comments. If mine was a diatribe, why would yours not be since it made as many claims as I made rebuttals?
Here's a clue, its not me.
Well I've seen evidence of your rational thought processes, I venture a guess this judgement on your part isn't any better than the rest of your attempts.
Your last response didn't cover any new ground and was boring, emotional, incoherent and quite excessive. But that's nothing new for you. Typical D1 rant.
Let me see. Why would my last response not cover new ground? Hmmm, could it be that I was rebutting the same falsehoods you had made in your earlier posts? I'm sure that didn't occur to you. Well evidently it isn't anything new for you either. Once again, thanks but no thanks for attempting to make a salient judgement call regard my post.
Like I said, you cast no blame, fault or responsibility on Israel for anything.
Terrorism isn't justifiable. Israel is not targeting innocent civilians randomly.
In your mind, they're as pure as the wind driven snow.
Well in truth I have criticized Israel at times. This just doesn't happen to be a time when I can. They aren't terrorists and the other side is.
Well, I've got news for you, you're wrong.
Correction, in your opinion I was wrong. We've seen what your opinion is worth.
Today, Israel engaged in an overly aggressive military response, during a critical time.
Today Israel attempted to take out the individual known to have initiated a violent attack on their soil in the last 48 hours. It wasn't overly agressive. And frankly this isn't a critical time.
Hamas, Hezbollah and Isalmic Jihad joined forces for the first time in the last few days. This was after the peace process was initiated. This is no longer a critical time. The peace process is dead. You can prop it up like dead old Uncle Buddy in the parlor, but it's only going to continue to stink worse until you face the reality and bury it.
Israel is well aware that PresBush is attempting to kick start a legitimate peace process, but still they couldn't abide by the agreement they made just last week.
How many terrorist attacks have there been against Israel in the last week? One? Two? Three? Four? I've lost count, but it doesn't matter to you because Israel is the one at fault for responding to those acts. And the acts themselves remain uncondemned by some people who will remain unnamed. Can you guess who that was?
And you fully supported todays actions, wholeheartedly.
Well at least you got that right.
While the Pali's and their buddies in Hamas, Hezbollah and Isalmic Jihad are the original instigators, at this point Israel is just as culpable.
Are the police as culpable as the bank robber? Is the teacher as culpable as the student she catches cheating? Is the victim of rape as culpable as the rapist? Is the homeowner who shoots the intruder as culpable as the intruder?
Why do you persist in blaming Israel for being attacked and then responding? This is just nutty logic.
I said this earlier and I'll say it one more time, for your edification. It's obvious you don't want peace in the Middle East.
Well let me tell you something for your edification. You are an idiot if you think unrestrained terrorism carried out against Israel hasn't already derailed this peace process.
You've made that abundantly clear from your angey and meanspirited screed, or should I say temper tandrum.
Look, I realize you don't have anything else to say, but I would think at some point you'd have the grace to accept the reality of the situation. Your position is indefensible. You may not realize this, but this exchange simply serves to ensconse you in the role as a person who is totally out of touch with reality.
Personally, I think you're pathetic. I pity you.
Well about all I can say is thank you. It would worry me to have someone so seriously out of touch with reality, think highly of me.
162 posted on 06/10/2003 9:05 PM PDT by Reagan Man
Another endless rant. You're so far out of touch with reality, you're beyond help.
I'll continue in support of PresBushes inititives for peace in the Middle East and you can keep hoping for more unrest and more killings on both sides.
I expect you'll continue whining and crying and carry on to adnauseam. Have at it.
Heck..Hizbullah would be blazing away in the north if not for something that has the French weasel clone of Damascus scared stiff.
Why do these terror org poster types get an exemption.
If I were Sharon..I would have insisted on Arafat and the Hamas wheel chair god as gone or dead before aquiesing.
Somehow..Sharon seems like the ancient Israelite kings..who loved their High places..and did not care a blink for the Dagon,Chemosh,Baal madness in the land..so may children..going into the fire as sacrifices.
Before sacrifices were mostly on high hills and in temples....now its on television for all to see.
Yawn. Borrrrrrringgggg!
And here I thought you were going to praise my comments. LOL
Another endless rant.
Wow endless? How'd you get your response on the same thread?
You're so far out of touch with reality, you're beyond help.
And this from a guy who thinks peace is at hand even thought terrorist organizations have now united to destroy Israel.
I'll continue in support of PresBushes inititives for peace in the Middle East and you can keep hoping for more unrest and more killings on both sides.
Once again bud, it doesn't matter what you or I do. It doesn't even matter what Bush does. Until the terrorists swear off terrorism we can all sing the praises of Bush's peace plan until we get blue in the face. More unrest and killings are all we're going to get.
I expect you'll continue whining and crying and carry on to adnauseam. Have at it.
Whining and crying? Come on now, you can do better than that.
166 posted on 06/10/2003 10:36 PM PDT by Reagan Man
Gee, I wonder if the Bush administration is going to succeed where no other administration has ever come close to succeeding? They'll quickly find out that brokering a successful deal between these two parties is infinitely more difficult than rolling over the Iraqi Republican Guard. ...Infinitely.
Exactly right. Until Arafat is dead, there's not even a slight chance of peace in the region. ...And until the State Dept dumps its Arabists, we'll see nothing but minor slaps on the wrists for him and his ilk.
Jerusalem will eventually be the prize..and the war..and lots of Hamdi's from all over comming to anihillate the Jews in a confederacy.
so ya..its the biblical thing of Ezekiel 38 and 39 with Hamdi buying it on the mountains of Israel...most likely obliterated by Israels vast arsenal of Neutronic munitions...lots of empty tanks and vehicles..with bleached white bones laying in the sun.
"A wild ass of a man..whose hand is allways against his brother"..the biblical poster quote for the tents of Ishmael.
As long as the misplaced Jordanians - aka Palestinians - remain in Judea and Samaria, there can be nothing resembling peace or security for Israel. It's well past time to send them back from whence they came --- to the eastern side of the Jordan River.
Giving them any part of Jerusalem is a crime beyond words.
Which isn't to suggest the proper course of action should be the opposite of the current course - that's much too simplistic.
The policy of the past decade didn't work due to the intransigence of the Palestinians, not Israeli policy. Logic dictates we now pressure the PA to work toward the middle and join Israel, instead of forcing Israel to move past the middle to meet the most extreme Palestinian elements.
And Israel determines theirs, as they must. Anything less would be a gross violation of national sovereignty on the part of their leadership.
Think about this: what is the goal of each party involved? I'd submit the US and Israel both desire peace, while a large, and uncontrolled, Palestinian contingent desires the annihilation of Israel. (Side note: until this contingent is reined in there will be no peace.)
Considering the fact that Israel and the US share the same goal, and the US has determined the proper way to attain that goal for ourselves is through the "Bush Doctrine", how can one argue that Israel should adopt the opposite position?
Right, and one of the things that affects us is this unending war btw Israel and the Palestinians who are under Israeli rule.
That's an interesting characterization. It seems to me the Palestinians just elected another Prime Minister; this is something less than "Israeli rule" in my opinion.
As Israel's main benefactor, and a country that is at risk because of mideast terrorism, we can damn well ask Israel to adopt some reasonable restraint
Reasonable restraint? Let's get some substance around that phrase - what is "reasonable restraint" as opposed to unreasonable restraint? Reasonable in the eyes of whom?
The reality is, you chose to use that phrase because it's so vague you didn't think anyone could rebut it. Why don't you use a better descriptor?
and Bush also has the First Amendment right to criticize them when they don't.
Of course he does. Who's argued he didn't?
If you think our president doesn't have the right to call em as he sees em, get out your constitution and re-read.
Oh, now I see. You're attributing comments to the opposing side they didn't make in order to marginalize their actual arguments. Better take a refresher course on logical fallacies.
The fact remains, if Sharon didn't want to be a part of PresBushes "Road Map For Peace", he should have stayed home and not gotten Israel involved in the first place.
I've been witness to enough first hand killing in my life and I've already seen the scenes from todays homicide bombing.
The fact remains, if Sharon didn't want to be a part of PresBushes "Road Map For Peace", he should have stayed home and not gotten Israel involved in the first
place.
178 posted on 06/11/2003 2:36 PM PDT by Reagan Man
Why don't you just give up on this topic? It obviously doesn't bother you a bit that Jews or Israelis are being blown to bits. The rest of us are on to you. Give it a rest.
You really don't have any understanding of this issue at all. With each post it becomes more and more appearant that you are dumb as a brick on this issue. I have suggested you'd do less damage to yourself if you'd shut up, but this escapes you completely. You think it's just me trying to make points. No, it's me trying to do you a favor.
Sharon met with Abass, Abu Mazen and President Bush. In case you didn't know it, Abu Mazen is now the Prime Minister of the Palestinian people. He is NOT the Prime Minister of the third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh... parties in this conflict, the terrorist organizations. Those terrorist parties third through infinity, are the parties that did not show up at the peace conference between King Hussein (of Jordan), President Bush, Ariel Sharon and Abu Mazen, and have sworn to kill every Israeli as long as one exists on Israeli soil.
Yes Sharon did make an agreement to try to develop peaceful relations with the Palestinians and Abu Mazen. Sharon started dismanteling illegal Israeli settlements, relaxed border crossing restrictions and sent millions of dollars to the Palestinian Authority to help them re-establish their police force. What one single thing can you point out that Abu Mazen did, that is tangible at this point? Please, name just one.
Sharon signed an agreement, Abu Mazen signed it, and Sharon followed through with tangible actions. As of yet Abu Mazen has done nothing. Has the terrorism stoped? Has it been reduced? Have there been any promises that it will stop? The answer is no to everything I asked.
Sharon has demonstrated that he wants the peace process to be successful. He has taken tangible actions to show this. NO OTHER ENTITY has, yet you sit there at your keyboard typing out more mindless drivel that Sharon shouldn't have joined the peace process if he didn't mean business. Nowhere do you mention that Abu Mazen shouldn't have joined the process, although he has taken no tangible moves to see it successful. Why is that? Do you think that readers don't see what your focus is?
Sharon attacked members of Hezbalah and other terrorist organizations. Yes some Palestinians were killed also. That's really too bad, but the reality is, Sharon tried to target members of the the third, fourth, to infinity terrorist groups that have sworn to carry out terrorism. He did not target Palestinians. This is totally lost on you.
Sharon is still trying to persue the peace process. He HAS NOT targeted Palestinians, their public agencies or their public officials.
Once more for the learning impaired, Sharon has attacked people who are members of terrorist organizations that have not signed on to the peace process. Do you understand that on any level?
Sadly lacking in any of your posts is a condemnation of the terrorists. I beleive you did make one or two references to not liking that the terrorist attacks took place. You have attacked Ariel Sharon. You have attacked those who adovate Israel defend themselves. You have attacked those who think the terrorists should be taken out.
You have a rather interesting focus on who should be attacked here. The implications of this are quite somber to myself and the other forum participants.
Now go find something to read, watch an old movie or just contemplate life and quit embarassing yourself on this topic.
What a liar, a phony and a fool you are. LOL That statement is not only ridiculous its a flat out lie and you have no proof whatsoever to back it up. There's not one iota of truth in it. Returning to this thread and reverting to more and more personal attacks against me, is not going to stop me from speaking my mind and engaging in my right to freedom of speech. I wouldn't think of demanding you stop speaking out, even though you continually sound like a big whiner. You should have left well enough alone. You're obviously a very immature rascal, starved for attention.
>>>What one single thing can you point out that Abu Mazen did, that is tangible at this point? Please, name just one.
Abu Mazen/Mahmoud Abbas hasn't done a thing. Now show me where I made a statement that says anything to the contrary? You can't. Another foolish statement by you!
>>>The answer is no to everything I asked.
Then why ask? LOL You have this propencity for answering your own questions. Why ask me in the first place?
>>>NO OTHER ENTITY has, yet you sit there at your keyboard typing out more mindless drivel that Sharon shouldn't have joined the peace process if he didn't mean business.
Face it, Sharon has done very little, but I agree he has done more then Abu Mazen. However, the most important part of the agreement that Sharon and Abu Mazen signed last week, was a pledge to stop all hostilities. You don't seem to comprehend that simple fact. Its easier for Sharon to halt hostiltiies, then it is for Abu Mazen right now. It might be an impossibility for Abu Mazen or anyone else to accomplish that feat on the Pali side. We shall see. The fact is, Israel is a valued ally of the US and when Sharon gave his word to PresBush, he should have kept it or he shouldn't have shown up at the meeting last week to join the peace process. I have nothing against Isarel defending herself and have said so numerous occasions. But when you give your word to President Bush, you should abide by it. Period.
>>>Yes some Palestinians were killed also. That's really too bad, but the reality is, Sharon tried to target members of the the third, fourth, to infinity terrorist groups that have sworn to carry out terrorism. He did not target Palestinians. This is totally lost on you.
There you go again, distorting the truth and fabricating your own reality. LOL The fact that Sharon targeted Hamas leaders with gunships and missiles in the middle of a crowded residential area, killing innocent people, doesn't show serious intentions of halting Israeli hostilities, as was the agreement he signed onto last week. An end to all hostilities means, an end to all hostilities. Period. The same goes for the Abu Mazen and the Palestinian side. The homicide bombing yesterday was one more outrage in a long line of outrageous killings that have been committed by terrorist groups like Hamas. In my opinion, at this point one thing is abundantly clear. The lines of distinction between who is the instigator and who is the retaliator, have become seriously blurred and that will not lead to an end to all hostilities. Get it?!
>>>Once more for the learning impaired, Sharon has attacked people who are members of terrorist organizations that have not signed on to the peace process. Do you understand that on any level?
The ties between terrorist groups and the Palestinian people are extremely strong. I'm surprised you actually deny this simple fact. At this point, any attack against Hamas, especially attacks that kill innocent people, is a direct attack against the Palestinian people. Its baffling to hear you conclude anything else. I see no good reason why anyone would want to distort the truth here.
>>>Sadly lacking in any of your posts is a condemnation of the terrorists. I beleive you did make one or two references to not liking that the terrorist attacks took place. You have attacked Ariel Sharon. You have attacked those who adovate Israel defend themselves. You have attacked those who think the terrorists should be taken out.
You know, I'm not PresBush. Stop trying to live out your fantasy lives vicariously through me. I realize you folks out there need a bogeyman to blame for everything and someone to take your frustrations out on, but find someone else. This isn't just boring, its a waste of my time. In that regard, understand why I won't be responding to your next round of lies, distortions and fabrications.
I understand this is a very emotional issue and you're one of the more emotional FReepers on the subject that I've encountered so far. When you let your emotions run wild, any hope for rational, logical and sensiable debate disappears immediately. In the last few days, I've told you and several others, to keep your emotions in check. I truly believe, the reason you people find it impossible for someone to disagree with you on this topic, is because you appraoch it from an emotional state of mind. I'm able to place my emotions aside and not get carried away. I control my emotions. You don't!
I suggest you stop running at the mouth with statements that bear no resemblence to the truth and stop fabricating your own reality. The only one whose embarassing themselves at this point, is you and other folks who let their emotions and personal feelings run wild.
This is a conservative debate forum, not a liberal whine feast.
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