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Science's Big Query: What Can We Know, and What Can't We?
The Wall Street Journal ^ | Friday, May 30, 2003 | SHARON BEGLEY

Posted on 05/30/2003 6:13:25 AM PDT by TroutStalker

Edited on 04/22/2004 11:49:03 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

What if stalactites could talk? If these icicle-shaped mineral deposits somehow preserved the sound waves that impinged on them as they grew, drop by drop, from the ceilings of caves, and if scientists figured out how to recover the precise characteristics of those waves, then maybe they would also be able to use stalactites like natural voice recorders and recover the conversations of ancient cave dwellers. Is it more far-fetched than recovering conversations from magnetized particles on an audio tape?


(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: crevolist; godsgravesglyphs
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1 posted on 05/30/2003 6:13:25 AM PDT by TroutStalker
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To: TroutStalker
bookmarked -- very interesting...
2 posted on 05/30/2003 6:32:29 AM PDT by Tallguy
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To: TroutStalker
"Knowing someone's future health, let alone personality or intelligence, based on a genetic readout may be impossible.."


So, are they saying that the future we see in the movie GATACA would be impossible?
3 posted on 05/30/2003 7:07:35 AM PDT by Chewbacca (My life is a Dilbert cartoon.)
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To: TroutStalker
read later
4 posted on 05/30/2003 7:56:43 AM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: TroutStalker
For later
5 posted on 05/30/2003 8:22:11 AM PDT by Prof Engineer (Space Geek {Texas...is bigger than France})
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To: TroutStalker
Egad - all we're talking about here is the entire philosophical field of epistemology, that's all...

The very first any freshman in any scientific field learns is how easily we reach the limits of human knowledge. The second thing he or she learns is how difficult it is to actually tell where it is with any precision. But it isn't really the limits of knowledge that is the issue here, it is the adequacy or inadequacy of existing mental models to incorporate new knowledge, and the necessity of modifying them to incorporate it or discard them in favor of models that do - that is the work of science.

The citation of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle is a case in point - there's nothing wrong with the mental models we term "position" and "momentum," but when we discover that we cannot in practice measure both simultaneously the first explanation that comes to mind is the one most often heard - that it is the act of observation that is the problem. Underlying this is the hopeful assumption that a new, non-invasive method of measurement will get us out of this difficulty.

That is a limit of technology, not a limit of the mental models of "position" and "momentum." And it is very likely not true. What is really implied here is more fundamental than that - that the actual information carried by a subatomic particle may be inadequate to satisfy the mental models described by the words "position" and "momentum" simultaneously - that the problem isn't techniques of observation, but an inherent limitation of that way of looking at things.

Professional physicists will, of course, correct my interpretation if it is in error (God bless FR!) but IMHO here is one place where epistemology and scientific observation close the loop and become one. But it is profoundly unsettling to have concepts as intuitive as "position" and "momentum" challenged. Unfortunately, shutting down one's brain won't make the problem go away. I've tried it.

6 posted on 05/30/2003 8:41:48 AM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach; sourcery
ping
7 posted on 05/30/2003 9:04:48 AM PDT by Libertarianize the GOP (Ideas have consequences)
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To: Billthedrill
....prevent us from knowing simultaneously both the position and the momentum of a subatomic particle.

Perhaps my ignorance and mental limitations blind me to the obvious but the answer to this problem seems to be in the semantics. For a particle to have a position it must be fixed in space, not moving. If it is fixed it has no momentum. Therefore, momentum and position are mutually exclusive.

...whether the universe has to be the way it is because the laws of nature can exist only in their current form, or if other physics are possible.

Now this gets more into the area you are talking about, epistemology, but it still seems to me to be a problem of properly stating the conditions of a circumstance, or semantics, rather than logically or mathematically solving a problem. Sounds like wistfulness to me, not science.

8 posted on 05/30/2003 9:07:10 AM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot (Not all things that need to be done need to be done by the government.)
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To: TroutStalker
What if stalactites could talk? If these icicle-shaped mineral deposits somehow preserved the sound waves that impinged on them as they grew, drop by drop, from the ceilings of caves, and if scientists figured out how to recover the precise characteristics of those waves, then maybe they would also be able to use stalactites like natural voice recorders and recover the conversations of ancient cave dwellers. Is it more far-fetched than recovering conversations from magnetized particles on an audio tape?

How bizarre is this?

Several years ago I literally dreamed this. It was so vivid, and stayed with me so indelibly, that I cast it into the form of a sonnet:

Echo and Narcissus

I dreamt last night that scientists had found
Encoded into metal, rock, and glass,
An unexpected form of "fossil sound",
Which cooling solids captured in their mass.

Numerical reagents were applied,
Precipitating meaning from the noise,
Roman blacksmiths from their shackles cried,
The Glass Harmonica held Franklin's voice.

Three seconds long! Yet Franklin's trifling quote
So captivated man's nostalgic heart,
It prompted him, enraptured, to devote
The world's resources towards his new-found art.

And yet, for all the effort that it spurred,
Nothing more of note was ever heard.

For those of you who don't know, the Glass Harmonica was a musical instrument invented by Benjamin Franklin.

In my dream, the cries of dinosaurs were also pulled from igneous rocks, but that refused to fit the meter.

For the record, I don't think such a thing is possible, but for a long time after my dream I could not shake the notion of "fossil sound" out of my head!

9 posted on 05/30/2003 10:17:54 AM PDT by Physicist
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To: PatrickHenry
Something for your ping list.
10 posted on 05/30/2003 10:42:38 AM PDT by Physicist
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To: Physicist
Fascinating anecdote, physicist, and a very good poem.
11 posted on 05/30/2003 10:50:24 AM PDT by beckett
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To: VadeRetro; jennyp; Junior; longshadow; *crevo_list; RadioAstronomer; Scully; Piltdown_Woman; ...
PING. [This ping list is for the evolution side of evolution threads, and sometimes for other science topics. FReepmail me to be added or dropped.]
12 posted on 05/30/2003 10:50:26 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Idiots are on "virtual ignore," and you know exactly who you are.)
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To: Sabertooth
Poetaster ping.

(Don't know whether I've laid this particular effort on you before.)
13 posted on 05/30/2003 11:04:01 AM PDT by Physicist (Poetaster, n.: One who feeds on the literary corpse of Edgar Allan Poe)
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To: TroutStalker
Science's Big Query: What Can We Know, and What Can't We?

This is the territory of philosophy, not natural science.

14 posted on 05/30/2003 11:04:57 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: Physicist
I could not shake the notion of "fossil sound" out of my head!

There's an old SF book, I can't recall the title or author, about a future where technology can recover the sight and sound of past events that (so the premise goes) are naturally imbedded in molecular vibrations of all matter. The story involved crime detection, and how the main character, knowing his every movement would be watched, managed to pull off a perfect crime.

15 posted on 05/30/2003 11:06:28 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Idiots are on "virtual ignore," and you know exactly who you are.)
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To: TroutStalker
Rumsfeld is apparently having an interdisciplinary influence.
16 posted on 05/30/2003 11:09:04 AM PDT by RightWhale (gazing at shadows)
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To: Aquinasfan
This is the territory of philosophy, not natural science.

Not always. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and black hole "no-hair" theorems come immediately to mind. Even the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics implies hard scientific limits on knowledge (i.e. the impossibility proofs of Maxwell's Daemon).

17 posted on 05/30/2003 11:20:30 AM PDT by Physicist
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To: Aquinasfan
This is the territory of philosophy, not natural science.

Why do scientists earn a PhD, Doctor of Philosophy? One would think there is some philosophy involved along the way.

18 posted on 05/30/2003 11:24:36 AM PDT by RightWhale (gazing at shadows)
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To: Physicist
What a beautiful poem!

But this line

"Roman blacksmiths from their shackles cried,"

had me stumped.

Does it mean that your "dream invention" unlocked sound from metal artifacts produced by (enslaved?) Roman blacksmiths and from Franklin's harmonica, but from nothing else ever?

Sorry to be so obtuse.
19 posted on 05/30/2003 11:24:57 AM PDT by tictoc (On FreeRepublic, discussion is a contact sport.)
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To: Mind-numbed Robot
Perhaps my ignorance and mental limitations blind me to the obvious but the answer to this problem seems to be in the semantics. For a particle to have a position it must be fixed in space, not moving. If it is fixed it has no momentum. Therefore, momentum and position are mutually exclusive.

No, extended bodies have position whether or not their momentum is nonzero. A car, travelling down the highway, has a position - it's somewhere at all times, right?

20 posted on 05/30/2003 11:28:05 AM PDT by Chemist_Geek ("Drill, R&D, and conserve" should be our watchwords! Energy independence for America!)
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