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Reasonable People Cannot Always Agree To Disagree
Self ^ | 5/12/2003 | Marvin Galloway

Posted on 05/12/2003 8:23:00 PM PDT by MHGinTN

Don’t you just love it when someone with whom you're arguing says, “Well, we will just have to agree to disagree”, as a spin of the phrase ‘Reasonable people can agree to disagree’, or as the shortened version, ‘Reasonable people can disagree’? Can reasonable people disagree over cannibalism in order to permit cannibalism, without doing violence to civilization?

As a pro-life advocate who gets into lots of discussions, I hear this ‘agree to disagree’ more and more. It tells me my points are getting to the irrational heart of defense for the abortion slaughter. When an advocate for abortion of alive little ones trapped in a womb tries to discuss the topic from a reasoned position, irrational underpinnings are eventually exposed and the ‘reasoning’ stops, in favor of either ending the discussion or deflecting the ‘reasoning’ into areas better defined as emotional landmines.

A whole new field of argument is arising in defense of exploiting individual human lives. There is a common foundation for these arguments, a theme running through the lines of reasoning from the ‘pro-choice’ camp, but the origins of that commonality are not to be found in choice to abort; it has a more subtle beginning than that.

Prior to ‘choice to abort’, dehumanization of individual life had already laid a foundation for exploiting and choosing, a basis for viewing individual human life as a phenomenon that grows in value, as opposed to being endowed with unalienable right to be. And it came into our collective psyche as a supposed benefit to humankind, a means to have science aid in conceiving babies with ‘artificial insemination’. Subtracting from our humanity, artificial insemination moved to more detached dehumanization, with in vitro fertilization, the scientific ‘miracle’ of conceiving ‘something’ outside of the woman’s body, then that thing being implanted into a woman’s body, to have a ‘growing (increasing) right to live’. [Devout Catholics would say contraception was the beginning of dehumanization, but that’s an historical discussion and not the focus of this essay. The Roe abortion decision came in 1973, but ‘artificial insemination’ had been a reality for years prior to Roe. The first in vitro fertilization baby in the world was born in July of 1978 in England, after many years of research. Today, many thousands of children are born annually as a result of the IVF technique.]

I cannot recall what I thought when first I learned that something could be conceived in a petri dish that would later be implanted in a woman’s body, to even later be born as a human baby. I have a vague recollection from my youth that some people warned against artificial insemination, warned that such manipulation of human conception would lead to a dehumanization process, a ‘slippery slope’. I don’t quite remember what was warned of down that slippery slope, but I don’t have to remember, because we are living in the age of arrival!

Now, at this descended-to plateau, engulfed in a degree of darkness not anticipated so long ago, we are again facing a slippery slope. How will we come to recognize it as a hazardous slope? … This time the hazard has a name. Will America reject cannibalism, despite the campaign to focus only upon the utilitarian value of cannibalism, diverting attention from the truth that we face cannibalism? If prepared properly, we will accept cannibalism, just as we accepted in vitro fertilization. [Note: I purposely repeat the word rather than allude to the reality. Cannibalism should have a revulsion value. Modern examples of cannibalism, such as the incident with plane crash victims who survived by eating the flesh of already dead crash victims, tend to blur our historic revulsion to cannibalism. Let’s focus upon the Jeffrey Dhamer version of cannibalism, the kill and consume version, as opposed to the ‘harvest from accidentally dead’ version of cannibalism.]

What could make cannibalism more palatable, more consumable? … Allow me to illustrate by sharing a recent discussion I had with a close cousin, a father of four.

My cousin asked me to explain a recent news story in which a research scientist was profiled for an heroic desire to cure his daughter’s spinal injury by developing protein matched tissues for transplantation. Nowhere in the story was the viewer (it was a TV presentation) given the underlying facts of how this tissue would be generated, only that stem cells closely matched to the daughter’s tissues would be harvested to treat her injury. As I explained the process of ‘therapeutic cloning’ (methodology the scientist intends to rely upon for the tissues he desires), my cousin displayed no revulsion to the process. No matter how graphic my description of the cloning and killing process, my cousin could see only the utilitarian value of the harvesting, never the cannibalistic reality of killing an individual human being conceived for the sole purpose of harvesting spare parts to treat the older individual human being. I was shocked that a well-educated man would not be repulsed by this cannibalism. Upon later reflection, I understood why. It’s that damn slippery slope!

Once the descending plateau is reached, an acceptance quotient has been established. In the case of therapeutic cloning, the acceptance quotient involves a speciously arranged ‘degree of humanness’ … a conceptus, or zygote, or embryo, or second (or even third) trimester fetus is not deemed a full human being. Nay Sayers will not be allowed to interfere with utilitarian value of the ‘conceive, support, kill, and harvest methodology’. Individual human life, prior to being born, is deemed ‘not yet a complete human being’ on our familiar darkened pro-choice plateau, thus to conceive individual human life, support that life, kill that life, and harvest from these ‘not yet complete human things’ is not defined as cannibalism. If these conceived individuals were admitted to be full human beings, would we still embrace the cannibalistic exploitation due to the utilitarian value of their individual designer body parts? The scientist of my cousin’s query most certainly would and my cousin would, because darkness this far down the slippery slope, this far down inside the funnel of dehumanization, is so great.

The pre-born are less human than the born? … Yes, when you strip away the rhetorical gamesmanship, the obfuscatory verbiage, that is what the arguments descend to, that is the dimness of our modern world. That is the plateau to which we’ve descended, from the seemingly innocent stage of artificial insemination then in vitro fertilization as merely medical assistance to natural conception. Touted as a boon to infertile couples, the in vitro fertilization process manipulated sex cells in a lab environment, conceived multiple embryos to be implanted in a woman’s uterus, stored excess embryos … and the process redefined the earliest age of an individual’s lifetime as but one stage ‘in a process that eventually becomes a human being’. So, where was the error in reasoning first made?

Sex cells are sub-units of organs; organs are sub-units of organisms; embryos are whole organisms. That was so quick, allow me to reiterate: cells are sub-units of organs, organs are sub-units of organisms; an individual human being is an organism; a kidney, for instance, is an organ of an organism.

In vitro fertilization manipulates, first, sex cells … sub-units of sex organs, organs of the parents. But if successful, in vitro fertilization conceives a whole, new organism … not just an organ, the whole organism! As the embryo grows, with the cell total climbing from one, to two, to three, to five, etc., the early cells are totipotent or pluripotent--less differentiated into the individual organs of the organism--thus the early cells are the organs of the individual begun with ‘petri dish’ conception, the assertions of Senator Orrin Hatch notwithstanding. [Senator Hatch claimed that conception doesn’t happen in a petri dish, possibly because Senator Hatch is pushing a bill that would allow therapeutic cloning, but not ‘reproductive cloning’. Senator Hatch has already decided that what is conceived in a petri dish and not allowed to live long enough to be born is not an individual human being, thus these ‘less than human’ beings will be fair game for killing and harvesting … fair game for his ‘to be protected’ form of cannibalism! Orrin Hatch’s reasoning has faltered at the difference between organs and whole organisms, thus he deems an embryo as no more than a non-differentiated organ that will ‘someday’ become an organism. And he’s patently and completely wrong!]

Whether in a dish or a human host, the embryo is an individual human being alive at the earliest age along the continuum we call a human lifetime. That fact is what was passed over so quickly when the debate over in vitro fertilization was squelched. That is the tiny error so grossly exploited to toss America down the slippery slope.

Now, after gradual descent (artificial insemination, in vitro fertilization, amniocentesis, etc.) and later steep descent (abortion on demand, fetal tissue harvesting, partial birth abortion), we have arrived at a descended-to plateau beyond which is cannibalism, conceiving then killing individual human beings because their designer body parts at an embryonic age are of utilitarian value, of more utilitarian value than their unalienable right to life. Can ‘reasonable people’ agree to disagree on cannibalism, to allow the cannibalism to continue? May God have mercy upon America if such is reasonable at this stage in our nation’s life.


TOPICS: Activism/Chapters; Announcements; Editorial; Extended News; News/Current Events; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: abortion; cloning; invitro; life
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To: MHGinTN
YEC bump
61 posted on 05/12/2003 10:17:46 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: ffusco
No. Once a baby is born it has it's own legal identity.

Yes. That's the problem that allows these little people to be slaughtered by the millions without so much as a funeral (except in Japan, where memorial services are performed for the aborted). That's what we're fighting to change.

62 posted on 05/12/2003 10:18:09 PM PDT by WarSlut (Boycott Disney)
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To: MHGinTN
but is not completed as a functioning organ until well after birth. Try again ...

No need , since the development of the soul takes a lifetime as well, This is reinforced by a lifetime passage of sacrements from birth till death.........or were you always so serenly intouch with humanity and God's gifts?
63 posted on 05/12/2003 10:19:55 PM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: ffusco
But only after about 7 months does the fetus have any hope of survival outside the womb

I was born at 6 months.

64 posted on 05/12/2003 10:21:19 PM PDT by Dan from Michigan ("You are fined one credit for a violation of the verbal morality statute." - Demolition Man)
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To: WarSlut
Technology is not at all far from being able to sustain an embryo into fetal age, then the fetus unto birth. In Japan, scientists are already working on an artificail womb in which to gestate higher mammals, utilizing a special 'oxygenating' liquid in which the fetal being is suspended while nourished. When cloning is matched up to the life support of an artificial system, the conceiving and growing of individual human beings solely for parts will be a reality. Will we embrace such cannibalism for its utilitarian value? I don't consider Christopher Reeves walking again worth corroding society for. I know that sounds harsh, but there it is. He's not worth cannibalism to make him whole again.
65 posted on 05/12/2003 10:22:04 PM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: WarSlut
Good for you. I for one find most abortions unneccesary since birth control is so cheap and effective,Yet in those rare case where it must be done I hope that people would have the sense to do it early in the first tri-mester.

66 posted on 05/12/2003 10:22:36 PM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: ffusco
Some people use fetus, child and baby interchangeably.

Some people do, some people don't. Some people refuse to use the words "child" or "baby" to describe the unborn, specifically in matters concerning abortion. The rely on the word "fetus", as though it means something entirely different.

It doesn't.

67 posted on 05/12/2003 10:23:47 PM PDT by WarSlut (Boycott Disney)
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To: Dan from Michigan
When were you born? Were you a DES baby?

68 posted on 05/12/2003 10:24:18 PM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: ffusco
You are unnecessarily hung up on the concept of time and limits of time as we perceive it. The soul is timeless; the body is ruled imperiously by time constraints. Since you appear to have a Christian leaning, how is it that the soul detached from a body now long ago returned to the atomic constituents of its construction can exist apart from a body but be again united to a body at some future where/when of God's choosing? ... That is but one of the questions your very limited concept of soul and body cannot adequately answer.
69 posted on 05/12/2003 10:27:20 PM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: WarSlut
The rely on the word "fetus", as though it means something entirely different.

No, they are different, a month old fetus is not a baby. If you can nurse it , it's a baby.
70 posted on 05/12/2003 10:31:05 PM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: ffusco
Did you read the part above regarding the individual human being expressing its unique individual life? ... Do you understand why it is that the tests done on embryos are reliable to determine that an individual has Downs or is anemic ... tests performed on the individual while the individual is still at embryo age?
71 posted on 05/12/2003 10:34:24 PM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: ffusco
ba·by ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bb)
n. pl. ba·bies

A very young child; an infant.
An unborn child; a fetus.
The youngest member of a family or group.
A very young animal.
An adult or young person who behaves in an infantile way.
Slang. A girl or young woman.
Informal. Sweetheart; dear. Used as a term of endearment.
Slang. An object of personal concern or interest: Keeping the boat in good repair is your baby.

72 posted on 05/12/2003 10:34:59 PM PDT by WarSlut (Boycott Disney)
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To: Ms. AntiFeminazi
Must read.
73 posted on 05/12/2003 10:40:52 PM PDT by Registered (RIP Baghdad Bob)
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To: MHGinTN
That is but one of the questions your very limited concept of soul and body cannot adequately answer.


Sorry, My soul was laughing at the arrogance of your presumption.
74 posted on 05/12/2003 10:41:06 PM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: MHGinTN
As a pro-life advocate who gets into lots of discussions, I hear this ?agree to disagree? more and more. It tells me my points are getting to the irrational heart of defense for the abortion slaughter.

I'm not particularly into abortion, but having someone say to you, on any topic, "we'll just have to agree to disagree" tells you no such thing, from a purely logical standpoint. It could mean as little as "This conversation is tiring and I don't wish to continue it."

Besides, you really have no choice but to "agree to disagree" with anyone you don't completely sway over to your side, on any argument. What are you going to do about it? Physically restrain them or physically attack them until they "agree to agree"? Of course not.

75 posted on 05/12/2003 10:41:56 PM PDT by Timesink
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To: ffusco
Late 70's. 2lb 15. Made it without any complications, but I was in an incubator for awhile. Two months I think.

Were you a DES baby?

DES stands for ????

76 posted on 05/12/2003 10:44:42 PM PDT by Dan from Michigan ("You are fined one credit for a violation of the verbal morality statute." - Demolition Man)
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To: Timesink
I don't have to agree to disagree.
77 posted on 05/12/2003 10:45:09 PM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: JohnHuang2
ping-a-ling
78 posted on 05/12/2003 10:46:49 PM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: WarSlut
How bout this: A puppy is a Dog.
A dog may not be a puppy, get it?
79 posted on 05/12/2003 10:47:35 PM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: Dan from Michigan
A fertility drug common from 1965-1970. I was also Tiny!
80 posted on 05/12/2003 10:48:59 PM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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