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Reasonable People Cannot Always Agree To Disagree
Self ^ | 5/12/2003 | Marvin Galloway

Posted on 05/12/2003 8:23:00 PM PDT by MHGinTN

Don’t you just love it when someone with whom you're arguing says, “Well, we will just have to agree to disagree”, as a spin of the phrase ‘Reasonable people can agree to disagree’, or as the shortened version, ‘Reasonable people can disagree’? Can reasonable people disagree over cannibalism in order to permit cannibalism, without doing violence to civilization?

As a pro-life advocate who gets into lots of discussions, I hear this ‘agree to disagree’ more and more. It tells me my points are getting to the irrational heart of defense for the abortion slaughter. When an advocate for abortion of alive little ones trapped in a womb tries to discuss the topic from a reasoned position, irrational underpinnings are eventually exposed and the ‘reasoning’ stops, in favor of either ending the discussion or deflecting the ‘reasoning’ into areas better defined as emotional landmines.

A whole new field of argument is arising in defense of exploiting individual human lives. There is a common foundation for these arguments, a theme running through the lines of reasoning from the ‘pro-choice’ camp, but the origins of that commonality are not to be found in choice to abort; it has a more subtle beginning than that.

Prior to ‘choice to abort’, dehumanization of individual life had already laid a foundation for exploiting and choosing, a basis for viewing individual human life as a phenomenon that grows in value, as opposed to being endowed with unalienable right to be. And it came into our collective psyche as a supposed benefit to humankind, a means to have science aid in conceiving babies with ‘artificial insemination’. Subtracting from our humanity, artificial insemination moved to more detached dehumanization, with in vitro fertilization, the scientific ‘miracle’ of conceiving ‘something’ outside of the woman’s body, then that thing being implanted into a woman’s body, to have a ‘growing (increasing) right to live’. [Devout Catholics would say contraception was the beginning of dehumanization, but that’s an historical discussion and not the focus of this essay. The Roe abortion decision came in 1973, but ‘artificial insemination’ had been a reality for years prior to Roe. The first in vitro fertilization baby in the world was born in July of 1978 in England, after many years of research. Today, many thousands of children are born annually as a result of the IVF technique.]

I cannot recall what I thought when first I learned that something could be conceived in a petri dish that would later be implanted in a woman’s body, to even later be born as a human baby. I have a vague recollection from my youth that some people warned against artificial insemination, warned that such manipulation of human conception would lead to a dehumanization process, a ‘slippery slope’. I don’t quite remember what was warned of down that slippery slope, but I don’t have to remember, because we are living in the age of arrival!

Now, at this descended-to plateau, engulfed in a degree of darkness not anticipated so long ago, we are again facing a slippery slope. How will we come to recognize it as a hazardous slope? … This time the hazard has a name. Will America reject cannibalism, despite the campaign to focus only upon the utilitarian value of cannibalism, diverting attention from the truth that we face cannibalism? If prepared properly, we will accept cannibalism, just as we accepted in vitro fertilization. [Note: I purposely repeat the word rather than allude to the reality. Cannibalism should have a revulsion value. Modern examples of cannibalism, such as the incident with plane crash victims who survived by eating the flesh of already dead crash victims, tend to blur our historic revulsion to cannibalism. Let’s focus upon the Jeffrey Dhamer version of cannibalism, the kill and consume version, as opposed to the ‘harvest from accidentally dead’ version of cannibalism.]

What could make cannibalism more palatable, more consumable? … Allow me to illustrate by sharing a recent discussion I had with a close cousin, a father of four.

My cousin asked me to explain a recent news story in which a research scientist was profiled for an heroic desire to cure his daughter’s spinal injury by developing protein matched tissues for transplantation. Nowhere in the story was the viewer (it was a TV presentation) given the underlying facts of how this tissue would be generated, only that stem cells closely matched to the daughter’s tissues would be harvested to treat her injury. As I explained the process of ‘therapeutic cloning’ (methodology the scientist intends to rely upon for the tissues he desires), my cousin displayed no revulsion to the process. No matter how graphic my description of the cloning and killing process, my cousin could see only the utilitarian value of the harvesting, never the cannibalistic reality of killing an individual human being conceived for the sole purpose of harvesting spare parts to treat the older individual human being. I was shocked that a well-educated man would not be repulsed by this cannibalism. Upon later reflection, I understood why. It’s that damn slippery slope!

Once the descending plateau is reached, an acceptance quotient has been established. In the case of therapeutic cloning, the acceptance quotient involves a speciously arranged ‘degree of humanness’ … a conceptus, or zygote, or embryo, or second (or even third) trimester fetus is not deemed a full human being. Nay Sayers will not be allowed to interfere with utilitarian value of the ‘conceive, support, kill, and harvest methodology’. Individual human life, prior to being born, is deemed ‘not yet a complete human being’ on our familiar darkened pro-choice plateau, thus to conceive individual human life, support that life, kill that life, and harvest from these ‘not yet complete human things’ is not defined as cannibalism. If these conceived individuals were admitted to be full human beings, would we still embrace the cannibalistic exploitation due to the utilitarian value of their individual designer body parts? The scientist of my cousin’s query most certainly would and my cousin would, because darkness this far down the slippery slope, this far down inside the funnel of dehumanization, is so great.

The pre-born are less human than the born? … Yes, when you strip away the rhetorical gamesmanship, the obfuscatory verbiage, that is what the arguments descend to, that is the dimness of our modern world. That is the plateau to which we’ve descended, from the seemingly innocent stage of artificial insemination then in vitro fertilization as merely medical assistance to natural conception. Touted as a boon to infertile couples, the in vitro fertilization process manipulated sex cells in a lab environment, conceived multiple embryos to be implanted in a woman’s uterus, stored excess embryos … and the process redefined the earliest age of an individual’s lifetime as but one stage ‘in a process that eventually becomes a human being’. So, where was the error in reasoning first made?

Sex cells are sub-units of organs; organs are sub-units of organisms; embryos are whole organisms. That was so quick, allow me to reiterate: cells are sub-units of organs, organs are sub-units of organisms; an individual human being is an organism; a kidney, for instance, is an organ of an organism.

In vitro fertilization manipulates, first, sex cells … sub-units of sex organs, organs of the parents. But if successful, in vitro fertilization conceives a whole, new organism … not just an organ, the whole organism! As the embryo grows, with the cell total climbing from one, to two, to three, to five, etc., the early cells are totipotent or pluripotent--less differentiated into the individual organs of the organism--thus the early cells are the organs of the individual begun with ‘petri dish’ conception, the assertions of Senator Orrin Hatch notwithstanding. [Senator Hatch claimed that conception doesn’t happen in a petri dish, possibly because Senator Hatch is pushing a bill that would allow therapeutic cloning, but not ‘reproductive cloning’. Senator Hatch has already decided that what is conceived in a petri dish and not allowed to live long enough to be born is not an individual human being, thus these ‘less than human’ beings will be fair game for killing and harvesting … fair game for his ‘to be protected’ form of cannibalism! Orrin Hatch’s reasoning has faltered at the difference between organs and whole organisms, thus he deems an embryo as no more than a non-differentiated organ that will ‘someday’ become an organism. And he’s patently and completely wrong!]

Whether in a dish or a human host, the embryo is an individual human being alive at the earliest age along the continuum we call a human lifetime. That fact is what was passed over so quickly when the debate over in vitro fertilization was squelched. That is the tiny error so grossly exploited to toss America down the slippery slope.

Now, after gradual descent (artificial insemination, in vitro fertilization, amniocentesis, etc.) and later steep descent (abortion on demand, fetal tissue harvesting, partial birth abortion), we have arrived at a descended-to plateau beyond which is cannibalism, conceiving then killing individual human beings because their designer body parts at an embryonic age are of utilitarian value, of more utilitarian value than their unalienable right to life. Can ‘reasonable people’ agree to disagree on cannibalism, to allow the cannibalism to continue? May God have mercy upon America if such is reasonable at this stage in our nation’s life.


TOPICS: Activism/Chapters; Announcements; Editorial; Extended News; News/Current Events; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: abortion; cloning; invitro; life
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To: cpforlife.org
“…this hard hitting study shows how dehumanizing language was and is being used to justify violent acts against vulnerable people, including the unborn,…”

Interesting how the dehumanizing word of choice for the movement -- fetus -- just so happens to be Latin for "child".

Just goes to show... there's no escaping the ugly truth.

41 posted on 05/12/2003 9:36:46 PM PDT by WarSlut (Boycott Disney)
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To: rb22982
I agree with you, my point was they dont give a rats about gov't birth certs.

Oh, I know that. I was merely being facetious (though, that's pretty much what their position amounts to. No certificate = no protection).

42 posted on 05/12/2003 9:39:24 PM PDT by WarSlut (Boycott Disney)
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To: WarSlut
(The "out on your own" argument -- or the "Viability" angle -- doesn't wash. A newborn infant is no less dependant on his/her mother than an unborn child. Neither can survive on its own.)

Not true. A child seperated at birth can be reaised by another Mother. So it's viablility + seperation and identity.

43 posted on 05/12/2003 9:43:20 PM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: VeritatisSplendor
"Do you really think a fetal human being, growing, taking in oxygen and nutrition and synthesizing molecules and growing and moving and reacting to stimuli and excreting waste and even learning in a simple way, is not alive in the scientific sense?"

The "pro-choice" delusionists prefer taking the position that a pre-born living breathing human sheathed behind the walls of the uterus doesn't "officially" exist without a certificate from the government.

These people must loove magic shows and Uncle Bob doing his 'pulling-a-nickel-outta-your-ear' trick.

44 posted on 05/12/2003 9:43:47 PM PDT by F16Fighter (Democrats -- The Party of Stalin and Chiraq)
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To: VeritatisSplendor
If I didn't appreciate what you said so much, I might envy the manner in which you said it. That's the best post I've read on any topic in a very long time. I'm glad it came on this thread.
45 posted on 05/12/2003 9:48:36 PM PDT by WarSlut (Boycott Disney)
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To: MHGinTN
Consider that life is sacred. We have a soul. Since the soul is not present in either the egg or sperm it must come from outside. We know this because the soul is indivisible. We also know that a soul is not possible without free will and some consciousness of itself as a seperate individual.

Therefore I doubt that a blastula has soul and therefore not a human being yet , its tissue with the WONDERFUL POTENTIAL for life, God willing.
46 posted on 05/12/2003 9:51:00 PM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: ffusco
Not true. A child seperated at birth can be reaised by another Mother.

That's true. So following that logic, the surrogate mother should have the right to kill the child up to the point where it can survive on its own, right?

No matter which road you take, viability is not a qualifier for protection in any civilized society.

47 posted on 05/12/2003 9:53:09 PM PDT by WarSlut (Boycott Disney)
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To: WarSlut
- fetus -- just so happens to be Latin for "child".

We are all children of somebody, yet at my age who (except some ex'es) would call me a child?

48 posted on 05/12/2003 9:57:05 PM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: ffusco
Consider that life is sacred. We have a soul. Since the soul is not present in either the egg or sperm it must come from outside. We know this because the soul is indivisible. We also know that a soul is not possible without free will and some consciousness of itself as a seperate individual.

Have you ever seen an ultrasound of an abortion? The child fights the abortionists blade with its very life, swatting at it, frantically moving away from it, desperately trying to survive.

I think that qualifies as some consciousness of self, wouldn't you?

49 posted on 05/12/2003 9:57:37 PM PDT by WarSlut (Boycott Disney)
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To: ffusco
I recently read an interesting take on this soul/body 'problem', from a simple Catholic Priest. He made the clear assertion that it is the soul which wraps the body, not the body which wraps the soul. That made imminent sense to me since I consider the soul to be immortal while the body is decidedly mortal in current form (and at 57, I'm reminded just how mortal every day). At first you emphasize the differentness of the soul and body, but then you assert that soul functions due to organs and cannot function absent the organs. The very meaning of 'afterlife' would seem to render your perspective too limited by an astonishing degree of restriction for the soul.
50 posted on 05/12/2003 9:58:44 PM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: ffusco
We are all children of somebody, yet at my age who (except some ex'es) would call me a child?

I'm not sure I see your point...

51 posted on 05/12/2003 9:59:44 PM PDT by WarSlut (Boycott Disney)
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To: WarSlut
This little one was 'caught' on sosnographic 4D video at 26 weeks of age from conception (if memory serves) ...
52 posted on 05/12/2003 10:01:38 PM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: WarSlut
That's true. So following that logic, the surrogate mother should have the right to kill the child up to the point where it can survive on its own, right?

No. Once a baby is born it has it's own legal identity.

But only after about 7 months does the fetus have any hope of survival outside the womb. I know first hand- 2 months in an incubator, last rights- this was in 1969 so it was a big deal.

53 posted on 05/12/2003 10:03:54 PM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: Hank Kerchief
the very same science that says, people begin when they are born.

I challenge you to support this claim.

54 posted on 05/12/2003 10:08:24 PM PDT by Sloth ("I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!" -- Jacobim Mugatu, 'Zoolander')
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To: MHGinTN
I have a vague recollection from my youth that some people warned against artificial insemination, warned that such manipulation of human conception would lead to a dehumanization process, a ‘slippery slope’. I don’t quite remember what was warned of down that slippery slope, but I don’t have to remember, because we are living in the age of arrival!

An article with some good points, totally lost due to nonsensical comparisons like this. We might as well say that organ transplants or blood transfusions are "dehumanizing" and led to abortion -- absurd.

55 posted on 05/12/2003 10:10:23 PM PDT by Sloth ("I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!" -- Jacobim Mugatu, 'Zoolander')
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To: MHGinTN
I did not say the soul requires organs, I said it requires consciousness which we belive is a function of the brain which we call mind.

Theologians may differ, yet The soul is a product of conscoiusness. Awake!

56 posted on 05/12/2003 10:10:42 PM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: MHGinTN
What a beautiful little creature.

And here we are, entertaining folks trying to paint the ideal scenarios in which he or she can be killed for profit and convenience.
57 posted on 05/12/2003 10:11:54 PM PDT by WarSlut (Boycott Disney)
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To: WarSlut
Some people use fetus, child and baby interchangeably.
58 posted on 05/12/2003 10:12:03 PM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: ffusco
The brain is an organ. That organ begins some functional capacity at ~45 days from conception, but is not completed as a functioning organ until well after birth. Try again ...
59 posted on 05/12/2003 10:12:25 PM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: Sloth
Organ transplants (and blood transfusions) do not deal with the start of individual human organismal life. You are confusing organ level life with organismal level life it would appear.
60 posted on 05/12/2003 10:14:44 PM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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