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Ayn Rand and the Intellectuals
Sierra Times ^ | 5/1/03 | Ray Thomas

Posted on 05/01/2003 8:44:18 AM PDT by RJCogburn

HATING WHAT THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND Liberal intellectuals (almost a redundancy, that) hate author Ayn Rand.

They don't just dislike her, they hate her with a passion. The reason? Because she has single-handedly come up with a logical and reasonable philosophy that strips them bare and reveals all their scams and schemes so that people who know her philosophy (Objectivism) automatically spot one of their scams from a long ways away.

THEY CAN'T TELL YOU WHY

They don't subject her to the usual mild criticism or "shunning" to which they subject liberals who say something "slightly different" from "the norm." Their treatment of Rand and her works is visceral and vicious. There are many who merely dismiss her philosophy with the wave of a hand. But they cannot explain why they feel the way they do. If asked for a reason for their opposition to Objectivism, they can't answer and launch into a personal attack on her that amounts to a "fact-free opinion."

DENYING REASON AND LOGIC

If you point out the fact that Objectivism is a "philosophy of reason," they deny the existence of reason. If you point to the logic of Objectivism, they say there is no logic. Then they go on to tell you that "there are no absolutes." Of course, they don't even notice the fact that their very statement is a "statement of an absolute," and negates not only their entire philosophy, but the very statement they have made as well. I love being a proponent of a philosophy that allows me to "shut down" those who disagree with it so easily and completely, and with their own words.

I hasten to say that I do not accept all of Rand's opinions and that I am not an Objectivist. I am a "student of Objectivist philosophy" and am still learning all its facets. That could change later, although I don't think I'll ever agree that abortion is a good thing and that there is no "higher power" although I may not see that "higher power" the same way other people do.

OPPOSING BAD IDEAS WITH GOOD IDEAS

One professor said Rand was a "phony libertarian" who wanted to strip communists of their citizenship. She did not. In fact, she was one of the few people not on the Left who opposed the violation of the rights of communists and said so, in print. She said that stripping them of their rights "is an invalid means of opposing communism and that the proper way to oppose bad ideas was with good ideas."

To show you just how visceral and violent their hate is, there is a story told by Ronald Merril, in his book, The Ideas of Ayn Rand, where a woman's boyfriend was horrified when he saw her reading Atlas Shrugged and grabbed it, throwing it out the window. She watched as the gardener, upon seeing the title, threw it down and ran over it repeatedly. This is an excellent example of the violent reaction that her ideas often get from people who have never really investigated them, but have listened to what their liberal friends have said about her and her works. But again, if you ask them precisely what they don't like about her and her work, they can't answer and usually sneer some personal attack upon her.

IS OBJECTIVISM A "CULT?"

That's one of the criticisms that is most often hurled at Objectivism and its creator, that it is a "cult" that does not allow any dissention. That people have been, in effect, "excommunicated" for disagreeing with it in the slightest way. There is a certain amount of truth to that charge, but it only applies to the personal "circle of friends" she laughingly called her "collective." Rand wasn't perfect, although her mistakes are tiny when put alongside her ideas, which are destined to change the world, and already are. She did insist on complete agreement among those people and shunned those who disagreed with her. But that does not apply to those who believe in, and use her ideas to guide their lives, as I do. That's not a "cult, nor is it a "religion."

Objectivism today has two major factions, about even in strength. One faction is run by her "philosophical and financial heir, Dr.Leonard Peikoff. Peikoff was a member of her "collective" and, in my opinion, is an "opportunist," who took advantage of Rand's fall out with her original protégé, Nathaniel Branden and took over her fortune as well as the "mantle" as "The Voice of Objectivism." This faction, running the Ayn Rand Institute, and claims to be the only source for Objectivist information and ideas. But it is this group that operates somewhat as a cult in that Peikoff's contention that Objectivism, as Ayn Rand proposed it, was, and is, complete and not subject to any changes. To be an Objectivist to him, is to accept everything Rand said, as "gospel" and not deviate from it in any way. It is this which gives rise to the "cult" accusation.

But there is a second faction, run by Objectivist philosopher David Kelley, who started and runs the Objectivist Institute, a competing organization whose view of Objectivism is that it is not complete, and can be improved. It is this group who are not, and never will be, "cult-like." If you wish to associate with this group, you will never get any static whichever way you believe.

It is this division in "the ranks" that caused a severe setback in the acceptance of Objectivism for years. This division was worse than that created when Nathaniel Branden left. But the Objectivist Center has had a strong influence and the acceptance of Objectivism as an excellent guide for your life is rising again, as it must, because it is the only logical philosophy there is.

You may not agree totally with the basic tenets of Objectivism, but here you will not be met with a cold silence if you dare to suggest change. In the Objectivist Institute, you will be welcomed and your ideas debated respectfully. The concepts discovered by Objectivists are not subjective, but the final word on the details of Objectivism may not have yet been discovered. You might be the force by which we can improve the philosophy, no matter what Leonard Peikoff might say.

If you're still "drifting in a sea of opposing philosophies," and you don't know why what's happening in this world is happening, this philosophy will help you to understand. Things will become clear to you as never before, and you will be able to, as my older brother Bob said many years ago, "read between the lines" and be able to figure out why people do as they do. What brought me to Objectivism is my inability to understand why people like Nelson Rockefeller, who had more money than he could spend in three lifetimes, supported collectivism even though it was intent on taking his money away (If you want to know the answer to that, e-mail me).

But this philosophy answered most of my questions and therefore, I can follow it for the most part because it's a logical philosophy and its opponents can only stupidly deny the existence of logic to oppose it. They cannot give coherent answers as to why it is bad, so they make things up. If you want to know the truth, go to the source: The Objectivist Center.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: aynrand; aynrandlist; objectivism
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To: general_re
I see you are still playing your silly word games, general:

But now my question is, why is it objectively better to be healthy rather than unhealthy?

'Healthy' means you live a normal life.
'Unhealthy' means you live a diseased painful life.
Objectively, it is better to be healthy.
[if 'is' means 'is' in your world]

441 posted on 05/02/2003 1:11:30 PM PDT by tpaine (Really, I'm trying to be a 'decent human being', but me flesh is weak.)
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To: r9etb
While I agree that the preponderance of the evidence points to a corellation, it is also clear that diet is not the sole basis of good health.

Evidence points to it being true, all other things being equal.

As you clearly state.

This gives us a high probability of being objectively true.

Just because you can't admit the truth doesn't make it untrue.

The limitation appears to be yours. You can't even admit that a thing is what it is -- the most obvious truth imaginable.

442 posted on 05/02/2003 1:12:16 PM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: r9etb
Unless you're prepared to give us a means of knowing what A is, then you can't accept it as an axiom, either.

Actually, "A is A" is almost a circular argument because it does not require you define either. Because the very point is that "this thing" is "this thing".

You define it by itself. That is the whole point.

And if you have trouble with such a simple concept, I'm not sure what the point of this conversation *is*.

443 posted on 05/02/2003 1:14:19 PM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: Hank Kerchief
Your criticism, This contradicts "A is A," (your father never did anything?) and it also requires you to assume ... an assumption (or any other mental phenomenon is an action and all action requires change)You cannot imply an action in your refutation of dynamism.

If there is dynamism, then it means at least some things can change. "A is A," implies that nothing can change. So either dynamism is not universally true, or "A is not always A."

444 posted on 05/02/2003 1:15:03 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: general_re; unspun; Hank Kerchief; donh; OWK; exmarine; Alamo-Girl; spunkets; Lev; jennyp; logos
That's really my only point here. No matter what system of morality and ethics you evolve, it's ultimately going to rest on premises that must be taken as axiomatic because they are fundamentally unprovable, and objectivism is no different than any other system in that regard. Objectivism is a perfectly logical system, if you accept those fundamental axioms. If you don't, and prefer some other set of axioms, then it's not logical at all.

That’s a quote from you, general_re. Of course, you are citing the same logic that kept (keeps) Karl Marx in business. He gave us a model of a relentlessly internally-consistent system based on certain fundamental axioms; and the whole thing worked out just fine, on paper so to speak -- just so long as you didn’t ask any “embarrassing” questions (like: what possible bearing can Marxian social-reconstructivist theory have on the way human beings actually live?).

What the system does not anticipate does not exist. All questioning of that sacrosanct premise is absolutely forbidden.

You go on to say:

If you accept the axiom that God exists and He has made certain pronouncements about morality, then a theistic system of morality and ethics follows perfectly logically from that. If you don’t accept those axioms, that system of morality will not be logical to you. In that regard, objectivism is neither more nor less rational than any other system of morality.

All of which begs the question: How many “systems of morality” can possibly exist without nullifying the entire idea of “morality” in the first place?

Which gets us straight to the issue: You clearly make the basis of morality a matter subject to human “preference.” You clearly say as much when you say we humans are completely free to choose the “axioms” that seem best to us. But doesn’t that gut the entire idea of moral order – by making it something that is established by means of personal, private judgment?

Which again begs a question: By what criteria can such judgments legitimately be made?

This is the problem that an alienated man, Karl Marx, once faced. And he faced it, by taking up more or less permanent residence in the stacks of the great library of the British Museum. He thought that the human mind, aided by all the relevant books in that establishment, could finally figure out the destiny of man, and so put man on a sound course to a utopian future.

The point is, Marx’s entire project is in abject denial of actual Reality – the way human beings actually live, and must live if they are truly human.

unspun very gingerly touched on this point with his term “relationality.” I gather that, like me, he finds objectivism’s overemphasis on radical individualism to just be a tad “over the top.” This theory turns a blind eye to the connectedness of the human person with other persons -- his relations in society and the world, and his relations (if any) with God.

There is a narrowing and flattening of the problem simply by virtue of making the human individual perfectly ultimate – such that questions of moral truth can only be decided according to individual taste and discretion. And just to say that only those things that can be proved can be true is to deform Reality itself.

But it seems clear to me that “certainty” and Truth are, if anything, mutually exclusive propositions.

Getting back to Karl Marx: Here’s a guy that thought he could reconstitute the world in his own image. At bottom, that’s what his entire project is all about – a “will to power” to explain Reality according to his own judgments and preferences.

But the world of Reality remains precisely what it is, regardless of Karl Marx. Though it’s true the world of human social relations has been profoundly roiled by Marxian doctrine, the world of natural reality just keeps on ticking….

Hopefully people can recover their senses and stop repeating Marx’s enormity of a theoretical mistake, which I would simply designate as: the flight from Reality.

445 posted on 05/02/2003 1:15:54 PM PDT by betty boop (God bless America. God bless our troops.)
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To: Dominic Harr
I can't even prove reality exists

It happens. Guess you can't be an objectivist, then. You'll get over it ;)

In any universe in which the law of cause and effect exists, as it does in this one...

I suppose it would be crass of me to point out that this assertion is also far from proven true, but you can see David Hume's ideas on causation if you like....

"Beneficial" effects are a "good" choice, "detrimental" effects are a "bad" choice.

This is knowable, and provable -- assuming cause and effect.

Well, you're really assuming quite bit more than causality, but you're right - that's a necessary assumption. Which, again, just goes to show that you're not really an objectivist if you're going to assume things like causality, but you knew that. If it's objectively knowable that causality exists, which objectivism says it is, then you shouldn't simply accept it on faith until it's been rationally proven, again according to objectivism. Dunno how you're supposed to actually get anything done that way, but it is what it is - you're definitely right about that...

446 posted on 05/02/2003 1:16:26 PM PDT by general_re (Take care of the luxuries and the necessities will take care of themselves.)
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To: Dominic Harr
This gives us a high probability of being objectively true.

High probabilities are not objective proof. Indeed, there are plenty of examples -- both ways -- to demonstrate that "good nutrition" is neither necessary, nor sufficient to ensure good health. And of course, the definition of "good nutrition" is itself a rather subjective thing.

Just because you can't admit the truth, doesn't make you any less wrong.

447 posted on 05/02/2003 1:18:18 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: tpaine
Ah, so this is the formal proof of it, then? Let's see if I have the form right:

1) Definition one.
2) Definition two.
3) Non sequitur.

Did I leave anything out?

448 posted on 05/02/2003 1:20:23 PM PDT by general_re (Take care of the luxuries and the necessities will take care of themselves.)
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To: general_re
Guess you can't be an objectivist, then.

We take cause and effect as an objective reality as true based on observed evidence, as I know you know.

But yes, this all could be a dream . . . like Bobby dying on Dallas.

Do you find that "deep"? I don't.

Other than this, "we can't know anything for certain because it could all be a dream", do you have any actual substance to discuss?

449 posted on 05/02/2003 1:24:29 PM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: r9etb
High probabilities are not objective proof.

Do you even admit a high correlation between "high probability" and "true"?

You act as if "probability" has no meaning . . .

450 posted on 05/02/2003 1:25:43 PM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: betty boop
Now I get to get it from the other end, I see. Well, I knew it was coming sooner or later ;)

How many “systems of morality” can possibly exist without nullifying the entire idea of “morality” in the first place?

As many as you like. Now, if the question you really wanted to ask was "how many objectively true systems of morality can exist?", then the answer is, at most, one - although "zero" is still a distinct possibility, of course, if there is no objective morality beyond what we construct.

Which gets us straight to the issue: You clearly make the basis of morality a matter subject to human “preference.” You clearly say as much when you say we humans are completely free to choose the “axioms” that seem best to us. But doesn’t that gut the entire idea of moral order – by making it something that is established by means of personal, private judgment?

Everybody lays claim to objective truth except poor old me and J.S. Mill. Let's just say that I can't help but notice what little consensus there is about what exactly the "objective truth" is, and therefore I look for pragmatic ways to...well, to duck the question, really ;)

Which again begs a question: By what criteria can such judgments legitimately be made?

If we accept the premise that we can and should begin building a moral edifice from the ground up, then the criteria are probably going to have to be ends-based. IOW, we decide what the preferred outcomes are, and judge the system according to how well it advances those ends. The advantage of this, of course, is that it will be immediately obvious if our system is "objectively" correct in advancing our goals. As to whether it's "objectively" correct in some larger sense...who cares?

451 posted on 05/02/2003 1:33:16 PM PDT by general_re (Take care of the luxuries and the necessities will take care of themselves.)
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To: betty boop; general_re
Well reasoned, -- well written betty. - Thanks.

Two bits that neither our 'general', nor his lesser 'staff' here, can address your points in any logical fashion. Their word games will continue.

452 posted on 05/02/2003 1:33:31 PM PDT by tpaine (Really, I'm trying to be a 'decent human being', but me flesh is weak.)
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To: Dominic Harr
We take cause and effect as an objective reality as true based on observed evidence

Good for you. Now all you have to do is prove the inductive principle, so that we can know that you're resting on an objectively true foundation...

453 posted on 05/02/2003 1:35:41 PM PDT by general_re (Take care of the luxuries and the necessities will take care of themselves.)
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To: general_re
Yep, any reasoning on your part was 'left out'.
You can't rebut common sense with word-play, 'general'ly speaking.
454 posted on 05/02/2003 1:37:33 PM PDT by tpaine (Really, I'm trying to be a 'decent human being', but me flesh is weak.)
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To: laredo44
The nature of our existence.

What is that? Do all people have the same nature of existence? Can't be...because different people have different morals. Which person's morals correctly conform to this "nature of existence"? Ayn Rand maybe? How do you show which person's idea of morals is correct? Please tell me, where can I find this "nature of existence" so that I can find out how I should behave morally? Obviously, this is not the answer - this is just a nebulous catch-all phrase that really has no substance and cannot even be defined with any certainty.

We are here, therefore we had a source. One offered source of our existence is God. It is either true or false that God is the source of our existence.

You are confusing being (existence) with morals. I know we exist and I know we are created by God, but morals has to do with right and wrong, not being. so, I ask you again, Where do moral principles come from? Man or God?

The absolutes possible due to the source of man's existence may be of the sort that we have come to know as "moral" things. According to our understanding of things, they would be "moral absolutes".

This is incoherent - you are mixing categories - ontological and moral. This statement you made makes no sense.

In fact, I contend liberty is just such an absolute. That it is a condition of our existence, it is moral, i.e., good, and it is absolute. You may disagree, but I doubt you'll get very far in making a case for the absence of liberty. I'd be very interested in hearing such a case, though. Why would I disagree with liberty? Liberty is an unalienable right (see Decl. of Independence) that comes from God, but it is not a condition of our existence - many do not have liberty. Whether or not someone has liberty depends upon whether or not their ruling authority is a God-fearing man. Not one single marxist country has any liberty becuase they do not believe liberty is God-given, they believe it is man-given. Liberty exists where men follow the moral principles from God.

455 posted on 05/02/2003 1:39:06 PM PDT by exmarine
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To: tpaine; betty boop
Two bits that neither our 'general', nor his lesser 'staff' here, can address your points in any logical fashion.

LOL. The pagan in the cathedral is usually an inconvenience, especially when there's a religious war among the various factions about their claims to "objective truth". Well, whatever - I'll let you two hash out what exactly the "objective truth" is, with the simple observation that neither of you can ever objectively prove your positions to the satisfaction of the other. Which is why my response to the question of "objective truth" is more or less "who cares?" I'm a pragmatist, not an ideologue - sue me ;)

456 posted on 05/02/2003 1:41:39 PM PDT by general_re (Take care of the luxuries and the necessities will take care of themselves.)
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To: general_re
"Everybody lays claim to objective truth except poor old me and J.S. Mill."
-gre-


How pitiful.
Your quote of Mills, made to me last night, did not establish him as rejecting objective truth.

How lame.
457 posted on 05/02/2003 1:45:28 PM PDT by tpaine (Really, I'm trying to be a 'decent human being', but me flesh is weak.)
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To: betty boop
Good post #445 with good reasoning. Marx had a warped morality because he had a warped way of reasoning, i.e. Hegel's dialectic - there is no right or wrong, just synthesis; right and wrong sort of just blend together into a nice little macheavellian soup.
458 posted on 05/02/2003 1:48:02 PM PDT by exmarine
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To: general_re
Good for you. Now all you have to do is prove the inductive principle, so that we can know that you're resting on an objectively true foundation...

Based on many, many lifetimes of observation and testing, we have found certain things that seem to be objectively "true".

A is A. Cause and effect. Water is wet. Fire is hot.

But yes, this all could be a dream . . . Hitler could have been Jesus come back to take his revenge on the Jews . . . Bill Clinton could actually be a Time Lord . . . Hillary Clinton might be Mother Theresa's clone.

This is silly, dude.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

I had a brief lull between projects, and thought I'd try and find an enjoyable, though-provoking conversation on a subject of substance. You have, unfortunately, wasted my time. My mistake, I suppose.

I had really hoped you were capable of going beyond "this could all just be a dream".

My bad. I'm out.

459 posted on 05/02/2003 1:50:07 PM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: general_re
"sue me".. 'LOL' indeed..

Thanks general, at least you know when to yield the field gracefully.
460 posted on 05/02/2003 1:52:31 PM PDT by tpaine (Really, I'm trying to be a 'decent human being', but me flesh is weak.)
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