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1 posted on 04/26/2003 12:28:28 PM PDT by The Old Hoosier
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To: sinkspur
More complete explanation bump.
2 posted on 04/26/2003 12:30:32 PM PDT by The Old Hoosier (Right makes might.)
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To: The Old Hoosier
You are right, but I don't think the American people have enough intelligence to understand your sound argument from the legal, moral, and practical aspects. Too many years of "dumbed-down" schooling makes them unable to think.
4 posted on 04/26/2003 12:37:04 PM PDT by Theodore R.
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To: The Old Hoosier
bttt
19 posted on 04/26/2003 1:00:22 PM PDT by firewalk
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To: The Old Hoosier
While I initially agreed with Santorum, I've done a bit of research. Santorum's statement was virtually identical to the majority opinion in Bowers vs. Hardwick, et al, in 1986 - written by Justice Byron White.

Unfortunately, the Georgia case of 1986 and the Texas case of today are vastly different. The Georgia sodomy law prhibited sodomy by both same-sex and different sex partners. The Court decided in favor of the State of Georgia because invoking a "privacy right" would have set us on a slippery slope to allowing privacy for incest, etc..

The Texas sodomy law was modified in 1974 to apply ONLY to same-sex individuals. Thus, it would appear that those arguing "equal protection" may have a strong case. Can a law allow an activity by one person (or couple) yet deny it for another person (or couple)?

The Court can certainly decide for the gay couple without invoking a "privacy right" and opening the door to other sexually deviant behaviors, like incest, etc., because laws prohibiting these other acts are not in question.
22 posted on 04/26/2003 1:02:53 PM PDT by jackbill
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To: The Old Hoosier
Santorum is right.
That is not enough.
Newt Gingrich was right.

Santorum is not a leader
We need party leaders who are right and who also are smooth enough to sell our ideas to the mainstream.

We need people like President Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, people who can articulate our positions to all of America, and people who know when to shut up.

So9

27 posted on 04/26/2003 1:17:12 PM PDT by Servant of the Nine (We are the Hegemon. We can do anything we damned well please.)
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To: The Old Hoosier
BTTT
29 posted on 04/26/2003 1:20:12 PM PDT by RAT Patrol (Congress can give one American a dollar only by first taking it away from another American. -W.W.)
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American Center for Law and Justice is committed to the defense of marriage and the traditional family. This case poses a threat to both. First, none of the petitioners' arguments challenging the distinction in legal treatment of extramarital heterosexual acts and homosexual acts would not also be an argument against the distinction in legal treatment of marital heterosexual unions and homosexual unions. Thus, petitioners strike at the institution of marriage itself. Second, petitioners argue for substantive due process protection of extramarital sexual acts. To recognize extramarital sex acts as "fundamental rights" would jeopardize the wide array of state laws governing even consensual, adult sexual activity, further pushing this nation toward sexual libertinism. The Constitution, however, neither does nor ought to enshrine the Sexual Revolution. The ACLJ is also committed to the rule of law and judicial restraint. In this case petitioners, in what may well be a contrived test case, request a sweeping, novel constitutional decision based upon the most sparse record conceivable. This Court, however, is not a forum for abstract debates on constitutional questions. The ACLJ urges this Court to dismiss the writ as improvidently granted and to decline to let itself be used, in this possibly artificial test case, for political purposes. This brief is being filed with the consent of the parties.

SUMMARY OF ARGUMENT

1. This Court should dismiss the writ as improvidently granted. The minuscule record in this case establishes virtually nothing beyond the fact that petitioners committed anal same-sex sodomy. For all the record reflects, the sodomy could have been nonconsensual, or public, or paid for, or incestuous, or part of an anonymous "one-night stand" arranged through an online chat room. The record does not even indicate whether either participant could fairly be described as homosexual in orientation. This case is therefore unsuitable for the landmark adjudication petitioners seek. All that is properly before the Court is a purely facial challenge to the classification, and prohibition, of certain extramarital deviant sexual acts. There is not even a record upon which to make either an informed judgment about such acts (for due process purposes) or an informed comparison between the acts within and without the scope of the challenged Texas statute (for equal protection purposes).

2. This Court should affirm the judgment rejecting petitioners' claim of a fundamental right to engage in same-sex sodomy. This Court has never recognized a fundamental right to engage in extramarital acts of sexual gratification, much less a right to sexual gratification unconnected to marriage or procreation. To reach such a result in this case would require not only the overruling of Bowers v. Hardwick, 478 U. S. 186 (1986), but also the invalidation of fornication laws (as petitioners admit) and a host of other laws defining sex offenses. This Court has repeatedly cautioned against the expansion of substantive due process, and no such expansion is warranted here. This case presents only a facial challenge, and the Texas sodomy statute clearly may be constitutionally applied in a broad range of circumstances, e. g., to coercive acts, to prostitution, to public acts of sodomy, etc. (For all the record shows, such circumstances may well have applied here.) Hence, petitioners' facial challenge must fail.

3. This Court should affirm the judgment rejecting petitioners' equal protection claim. This case has been litigated under the rational basis standard; hence, as this Court explained in Heller v. Doe, 509 U. S. 312, 319 (1993), it would be wholly improper and unfair to inject a new standard here. Moreover, because there is no fundamental right at issue and because the record does not even identify what supposed suspect or quasi-suspect class petitioners belong to, heightened scrutiny is in any event unjustified. Under rational scrutiny, the ban on same-sex sodomy clearly passes constitutional muster. There are at least three, independently adequate, rational bases for the statute. First, a ban on same-sex sodomy permissibly furthers public morality. Second, the extensively documented health risks of same-sex sodomy supply a strong public health rationale for the statute. Third, based upon the view of all nine Justices in Bowers, as well as this Court's other "privacy" decisions, a state could reasonably conclude that, to minimize the likelihood of constitutional attack and invalidity, a ban on sodomy needed to exclude heterosexual acts. Importantly, the distinction between heterosexual and homosexual unions is the hallmark of marriage law. To invalidate that distinction here would be tantamount to holding marriage unconstitutional.

II. PETITIONERS' SUBSTANTIVE DUE PROCESS CHALLENGE FAILS.

This Court has never recognized a federal constitutional right to engage in extramarital sexual acts --even the consensual, nonmercenary, private acts of adults, much less sexual acts that deviate from the normal sexual union of a man and a woman. Carey v. Population Servs. Int'l, 431 U. S. 678, 688 n. 5 (1977) (" the Court has not definitively answered the difficult question whether and to what extent the Constitution prohibits state 7 statutes regulating private consensual behavior among adults . . . and we do not purport to answer that question now") (citations, editing marks, and internal quotation marks omitted). Creation of such a novel right would require precisely the sort of ahistorical, atextual, freewheeling substantive due process adjudication which this Court has renounced for the past thirty years. See, e. g., Washington v. Glucksberg, 521 U. S. 702, 720- 22 (1997); Reno v. Flores, 507 U. S. 292, 302-03 (1993); Collins v. City of Harker Heights, 503 U. S. 115, 125 (1992); Michael H. v. Gerald D., 491 U. S. 110, 121-23 (1989) (plurality); Bowers v. Hardwick, 478 U. S. 186, 194-95 (1986). As Justice Stevens wrote for a unanimous Court, As a general matter, the Court has always been reluctant to expand the concept of substantive due process because guideposts for responsible decisionmaking in this unchartered area are scarce and open-ended. . . . The doctrine of judicial self-restraint requires us to exercise the utmost care whenever we are asked to break new ground in this field. Collins, 503 U. S. at 125 (citation omitted). Petitioners rely heavily upon this Court's abortion and birth control jurisprudence. E. g., Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pennsylvania v. Casey, 505 U. S. 833 (1992). Casey, however, relied heavily upon stare decisis in declining to overrule in toto the line of cases beginning with Roe v. Wade, 410 U. S. 113 (1973). See Casey, 505 U. S. at 854-69. In the present case, existing precedent --Bowers --weighs against recognition of the proposed right; hence the stare decisis rationale of Casey, regardless of its merits, 9 gives no support to petitioners.

36 posted on 04/26/2003 1:36:20 PM PDT by Remedy
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To: The Old Hoosier
You rather conveniently, it seems, ignore adultery which Rick had named in his statement.

How come?
41 posted on 04/26/2003 1:48:25 PM PDT by RJCogburn (Yes, I will call it bold talk for a......)
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To: The Old Hoosier
" If you want to repeal sodomy laws, go pass a law, do not let the Supreme Court take away the people's right to self-rule. Even if you are a homosexual libertarian from the Cato Institute, you should want us to arrive at libertarian policy decisions through democratic legislative proceses, not through dictatorial impositions from an unelected court."

The way of the Left is exactly as you say -- to circumvent the democratic legislative process through which they surely lose, by going back door (no pun intended) via the nine SC justices.

51 posted on 04/26/2003 2:08:03 PM PDT by F16Fighter (Democrats -- The Party of Stalin and Chiraq)
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To: The Old Hoosier
Sooner or later, a future court will use this case to strike down all state laws against anything whatsoever that is done in private, regardless of the harm it does to society.

A conclusion that is devoutly to be wished, by anyone who genuinely respects individual liberty ... and that is already recognized by the Ninth and Fourteenth Amendments ... and that is exceedingly, and unfortunately, unlikely.

In any event, the removal of such differentiation under the law is akin to outlawing Jim Crow restrictions as to race, not "creating a protected class." It involves a restriction that is placed upon one class of persons being removed, not a privilege that is granted to such a class.

What this does as to federalism is indeed problematic -- but we have the Fourteenth Amendment, and an entirely reasonable case can be (and has been) made that setting up penalties for one class of people as to consensual acts is not "due process of law."

55 posted on 04/26/2003 2:11:04 PM PDT by Greybird ("War is the health of the State." -- Randolph Bourne)
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To: The Old Hoosier
Santorum simply needs to tell us whether or not he believes police should be able to barge into the bedrooms of consenting adults and arrest them for homosexuality and adultery.

If he doesn't, then he needs to explain himself.
If he does, then he will suffer the political fallout and hurt the Republican party in general.

87 posted on 04/26/2003 3:17:51 PM PDT by Jorge
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To: The Old Hoosier
I'm probably missing something.

Why can't the Supremes decide in favor of Texas on a 9th Amendment basis?
94 posted on 04/26/2003 3:39:50 PM PDT by ninenot
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To: The Old Hoosier
"2) Does it violate the 14th amendment's guarantee of equal protection to outlaw homosexual sodomy, but not heterosexual sodomy, as the Texas law does? In other words, should sexual orientation become a specially protected category under the 14th amendment--along with race? Again, the petitioners say yes."

You have this backwards. To say that homosexuals do not have the same right as heterosexuals in fact removes the right to equal protection under the law for a targeted category of citizens.

97 posted on 04/26/2003 3:44:39 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez (When the elephants are stampeding, don't worry about the pissants.)
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To: The Old Hoosier
referencing the same argument in the last major Supreme Court case on sodomy, Bowers v. Hardwick (1986).

Sorry, but even The Onion couldn't have made that case name up...lol!

123 posted on 04/26/2003 4:28:35 PM PDT by HennepinPrisoner
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To: The Old Hoosier

the FOUNDING FATHERS UNLEASHED

  Our Constitution provides the legitimate foundations of this country as a free nation that is of the people and by the people but, we must read beyond it words and read it's authors words and thoughts in order to understand the warnings they have sent through generations to it's application in todays world.
 




warning...

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion...Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
- John Adams, October 11, 1798



warning...

"Have you ever found in history, one single example of a Nation thoroughly corrupted that was afterwards restored to virtue?... And without virtue, there can be no political liberty....Will you tell me how to prevent riches from becoming the effects of temperance and industry? Will you tell me how to prevent luxury from producing effeminacy, intoxication, extravagance, vice and folly?..."

- John Adams, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson


The entire argument about sexual behavior is so simple it can be reduced to the following: Should there be any social rules about what sexual activity a human being engages in?

If the answer is no then everyone should just shut up...hetero is okay, cousins are okay, polygamy is okay, bi is okay; gay is okay, 13-year olds are okay, and one or one-hundred-at-a-time are okay, et. al.

However, if a society decides that certain rules about who does whom when and where is functional and perhaps even necessary, all that is left is to decide is WHAT are the rules of sexual behavior and WHO shall make them...simple. Those who follow the 'rules' are then NORMAL and all the rest are PERVERTS... so very, very simple...you decide.

Van & Katherine Jenerette

www.jenerette.com

242 posted on 04/26/2003 6:22:05 PM PDT by Van Jenerette (Our Republic...If We Can Keep It!)
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To: The Old Hoosier
DISCLAIMER: The following statement is Unpolitically correct.

Call me any names imaginable but Santorum is right in his statement, both legally and morally. The demokrats have no morals left, of their complete and utter leftness.

313 posted on 04/26/2003 10:45:49 PM PDT by TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!
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To: The Old Hoosier
I am glad I was pinged (seriesly) to this series vanity!
314 posted on 04/26/2003 10:46:46 PM PDT by TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!
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To: The Old Hoosier
Santorum bump!
401 posted on 04/27/2003 11:09:53 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: The Old Hoosier
Here's what I wrote the Seattle Times about the matter.

April 27, 2003

To the Editor

Seattle Times,

Leonard Pitts Jr. was shocked that Sen. Rick Santorum would compare homosexuality to bigamy, polygamy, incest, adultery and bestiality. (‘The repugnant cynicism of Sen. Rick Santorum’ 4-27-03,Seattle Times)

I was too. While heterosexual bigamy, polygamy, and adultery are harmful and, I think, morally wrong, they are not sexual perversions. Homosexuality is. There is no comparison.

Mr. Pitts goes on to argue that just because Sen. Santorum may be an “all-right guy” or have friends and family who love him doesn’t mean that whatever he say’s or does is all right. I agree. Whether or not somebody is loved or whether or not they are “nice” should not be the litmus test for whether or not an action or a behavior they engage in is good, right or appropriate.

Yet, that’s exactly the line that homosexualists take in their efforts to normalize homosexual behavior. Don’t pay attention to the sexual act they engage in, even though, as Mr. Pitts rightfully states, to do so would be “to separate one’s identity from the behavior that defines it”, just pay attention to whether or not they are nice, a good employee or have someone who loves them.

This may come as a shock to you but pedophiles have people who love them too. Sexual perversions don’t become normal behavior just because the person who engages in it is nice or loved or witty. Just because they are someone’s mother, father, sister or brother.

Homosexualists have largely succeeded, primarily through bullying tactics, (Bigot! Homophobe! Hater!) at getting otherwise intelligent people to deny the obvious biology of heterosexuality, to suppress their natural revulsion to homosexual acts and to ignore the physical/mental harm caused by engaging in homosexual acts.

If a group of people had a desire to eat food by putting it in their ear instead of their mouth would they be able to convince Mr. Pitts that it was natural, normal and healthy? Probably.

486 posted on 04/27/2003 8:39:50 PM PDT by ethical
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To: The Old Hoosier
There are two issues in this case:


1) Is there a constitutional right for any two adults to engage in any kind of consensual sex, as long as it's behind closed doors? The petitioners say yes, there is, and are asking the court to agree.

2) Does it violate the 14th amendment's guarantee of equal protection to outlaw homosexual sodomy, but not heterosexual sodomy, as the Texas law does? In other words, should sexual orientation become a specially protected category under the 14th amendment--along with race? Again, the petitioners say yes.


Seems pretty clear to me, adult Americans can decide for themselves what they choose to do in their own homes.

L,L, and TPoH
501 posted on 04/27/2003 9:21:03 PM PDT by WhiteGuy (MY VOTE IS FOR SALE)
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