Iraq 'could become the economic giant of Gulf'

I was about to make the same point.

Economics is not a zero sum game.

Revalation was written in 90 AD

Revelation

"I'll bet you believe in replacement theology."

Wrong.

"I guess I must have missed the second coming then. Sounds like it happened 1,900 years ago."

You guessed wrong.

Who is Israel?

"I guess I must have missed the second coming then. Sounds like it happened 1,900 years ago."

Here's a couple of questions for you:
1) where does the bible refer to the rebuilding of the Temple that was destroyed in A.D. 70? There is no reference in scripture to this, unless you use the discredited idea of a double reference prophecy.

2) who was Jesus referring to in Matt. ch. 24? He said, "some of you standing here. . . ." Did he use the word "you" when he really meant "them"? If he was referring to events 2,000 years in the future, why were the disciples so very interested in those events He was prophesying about?

3) Daniel's 70 weeks prophecies refer to a specific span of time, starting in 457 B.C. with the command to rebuild the Temple. The span of 490 years (70 * 7 Heptads, or "weeks" ) would be complete in the first century A.D. and could not possibly extend to modern times unless the prophecy clock stopped, as so many people now assert. Where is there any scripture which says that this prophecy has been put on hold? Check out this link: Prophecy Timeline

"Revalation was written in 90 AD"

Actually, that is the view held for a long time. But there are some other scholarly views on dating the book of revelation that put it more in the time frame of A.D. 62-66.

I have some info on this but the link is not working right now. I'll find it and send it to you on freepmail.

Oops! Try this link instead: Prophecy Timeline

Only someone with a simple understanding of the Apocalypse (that is Greek for Reveleations y'all) would take the book literally.

...some Gulf analysts fear a rebuilt Iraq will be a powerhouse that could squeeze the region's other economies over the long term.

Obviously, these "Gulf analysts" studied under Democrat economics professors.

"To the extent the Islamists win, Iraq will be just another backard Arab nation after the rebirth."

I pray they do not become an Islamic economic power.

and don't forget those palaces....they arfe going to be owned by Hilton and Marriott and others and you and I are going to pay money to sleep in them

Huh? Go to Iraq to pay to sleep in a Marriott? LOL! No thanks, I would rather stay home and paint my house...

Even JFK in 1964 understood that economically, a rising tide lifts all boats.

That's right, and it floated our manufacturing boat all the way to China.

..and don't forget those palaces....they are going to be owned by Hilton and Marriott and others and you and I are going to pay money to sleep in them.

Not necessarily. Like the Paradores in Spain, they could be owned by the Government and you and I will still pay money to sleep in them.

"Who is Israel?"

The New Testament church is one ("unity") with Israel of the Old Testament.

Gentiles have always been adopted into the family of Abraham by faith in Abraham's Son. Gentile believers are made a part of (grafted into) Israel, and thus they inherit the promises given to Abraham alongside Jewish believers from both Testaments. There is neither separation nor replacement. Instead, the two have become one.

"For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile -- the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call upon Him." [Romans 10:11]

"The Church" is the Bride of Christ. He will marry this Bride at his return. Christ does not have two Brides.

"The Church" is the Body of Christ, of which He is the Head. Christ does not have two bodies.

Jesus was saying something very very profound in John 15: 1-8 and Acts 4:13 --- especially for the Hebrew mind.

When Jesus said "I am the vine", those who listened thought of the old Testament and these words, [Psalm 80:8-11]:

Psa 80:8 Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.

Psa 80:9 Thou preparedst [room] before it, and didst cause it to take deep root, and it filled the land.

Psa 80:10 The hills were covered with the shadow of it, and the boughs thereof [were like] the goodly cedars.

Psa 80:11 She sent out her boughs unto the sea, and her branches unto the river.

[Isa 5:1-2, 7]:

Isa 5:1 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:

Isa 5:2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.

Isa 5:7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts [is] the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

[Jer. 2:2, 21]:

Jer 2:2 Go and cry in the ears of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; I remember thee, the kindness of thy youth, the love of thine espousals, when thou wentest after me in the wilderness, in a land [that was] not sown.

Jer 2:21 Yet I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto me?

[Ezek. 19:10-14]:

Eze 19:10 Thy mother [is] like a vine in thy blood, planted by the waters: she was fruitful and full of branches by reason of many waters.

Eze 19:11 And she had strong rods for the sceptres of them that bare rule, and her stature was exalted among the thick branches, and she appeared in her height with the multitude of her branches.

Eze 19:12 But she was plucked up in fury, she was cast down to the ground, and the east wind dried up her fruit: her strong rods were broken and withered; the fire consumed them.

Eze 19:13 And now she [is] planted in the wilderness, in a dry and thirsty ground.

Eze 19:14 And fire is gone out of a rod of her branches, [which] hath devoured her fruit, so that she hath no strong rod [to be] a sceptre to rule. This [is] a lamentation, and shall be for a lamentation.

[Hosea 10: 1a]:

Hsa 10:1 Israel [is] an empty vine, he bringeth forth fruit unto himself ..

When Jesus said, "I am the true vine, his Jewish hearers thought of those verses. During the Maccabean period, the coinage of God's people had a vine on it as a symbol of Isreal.

When Jesus said, "I am the vine", he was saying, "I am the essence of Isreal."

He was saying, "I am the prototype of which Isreal is the type."

He was saying, "I am the personification of everything God's people were ever meant to be."

He was saying, "I am the reality of all that God has ever proposed to do in the entire history of the human race."

the beast- bill clinton
the seven heads- european union or other group(un)etc,
42 months- clinton was the 42nd president

>"Revalation was written in 90 AD"

"Actually, that is the view held for a long time. But there are some other scholarly views on dating the book of revelation that put it more in the time frame of A.D. 62-66."

Eusebius in the 4th century placed Revelation in the 90's, as well as John's exile to Patmos. What evidence do these scholars have that overturns his historical citation?

Without an early date to Revelation, this historical prophetic interpretation is not applicable.

Thanks for the link. Certainly, there is some fit between the dates of the events of the 1st century and those of Revelation, but you really need rock solid evidence to overturn the traditional dating.

"Here's a couple of questions for you: [snip]" ~ webstersII

Your questions fall under a Dispensationalist / Premillennialism belief-system of today's religious pop culture.

This will answer your questions:

A Present or Future Millennium? by Kim Riddlebarger

© May / June 1994, Modern Reformation / ACE

Most American Evangelicals are firmly committed to the idea that an earthly millennial age will begin immediately after our Lord Jesus Christ's Second Advent. Since premillennialism is so dominant in American church circles, many who encounter historic Protestantism for the first time are quite surprised when they discover that all of the Protestant Reformers and the entire Reformed and Lutheran traditions are amillennial.

Amillennialism is that understanding of eschatology which sees the millennium not as a future golden age as does premillennialism (the age of the church triumphant), but instead as the present course of history between the First and Second Advent's of our Lord (the age of the church militant).

.. I am convinced, however, that many readers simply do not understand the basic end-times scenario found in the New Testament.

Part of the problem is that dispensational premillennial writers have completely dominated Christian media and publishing. There are literally hundreds of books, churches, and parachurch ministries all devoted to taking premillennialism and the "pretribulation" rapture idea to the masses. And so, I can only lament the fact that my own tradition has done so little to produce popular books introducing and defending amillennialism.

It is my guess that many who read this article will have never heard the case for the classical position held by the church regarding the return of Christ and the millennial age.

Another problem encountered when examining this subject is that discussions of it often generate a great deal of heat but not very much light.

One local prophecy pundit has quipped that the people in heaven with the lowest IQs will be amillennial. Hal "Late Great" Lindsey goes so far as to label amillennialism as "anti-Semitic," demonic and heretical.1

It is not uncommon to hear prophecy teachers label amillennial Christians as "liberal" or to accuse them of not taking the Bible literally. The result of such diatribes is that American Christians cannot help but be prejudiced by such unfortunate comments, and many simply reject outright (without due consideration of the other side) the eschatology of the Reformers and classical Protestantism-an eschatology that is amazingly simple, biblical, and Christ centered.

And so, if you should be in that camp, instead of simply turning me off at this point, please bear with me, hear my case, and then decide for yourself on the basis of Scripture.

Unfortunately, it is all too fashionable to interpret the Bible in light of the morning newspaper and CNN.

Yes, it is fun to read the Bible through the filter of every geopolitical crisis that arises in our modern world. This adds relevance to the Bible, we are told.

It most assuredly sells thousands and thousands of books and provides for slick programs on Christian TV and radio documenting every move by the European Economic Community, and every possible technological breakthrough that may prepare the way for the coming Mark of the Beast.

These sensational end-times dramas heighten the sense of urgency regarding the coming of our Lord. They supposedly give the church missionary zeal. But however fascinating these schemes may be, I do not believe that they accurately reflect the Biblical data.

There is, in addition, a quite serious side effect produced by this approach to Bible prophecy: The Bible no longer speaks for itself because it is twisted into a pretzel by each of its interpreters, who do their best to show that the upheaval of the nations described in the Book of Revelation has nothing whatsoever to do with the original reader in the first century struggling under Roman persecution, but is instead somehow related to the morning headlines.

How many times can we tell our hearers that Jesus is coming back soon (No, we really mean it this time!) and then tie that message to a passing despot like Saddam Hussein or a tenuous political figure like Mikhail Gorbachev?

How do we keep those who need to hear about Christ's Second Advent the most from becoming increasingly cynical about the message of his coming? But then again this too is a sign of the end, for scoffers will come and say "where is this 'coming' he promised?" (2 Pt 3:34)

How tragic that prophecy speculators actually contribute to the very skepticism they themselves acknowledge as a key sign of the end.

The classical Protestant tradition has helpful answers to these problems, as it does to many other crises facing the modern Church that, by and large, have been forgotten by today's Evangelicals.

All of the Protestant Reformers, were they to come back to give us counsel in these areas, would insist that we must start with the notion that the Bible itself must be read with the analogia fidei (the analogy of faith), meaning that Holy Scripture must be allowed to interpret Scripture.

In other words, we must inductively develop a biblical model of eschatology by utilizing all of the passages that relate to the return of Christ, the resurrection, the judgement, the millennium, and so on.

We should never study eschatology merely by finding Bible verses (often out of context) that we think describe current events. And so, by utilizing the analogy of faith, we begin with the clear declarations of Scripture regarding the coming of our Lord and use them to shed light on passages that are less clear.

Following this method, we can clear up many of the bizarre mysteries fabricated by modern prophecy devotees, who insist upon making unclear and difficult passages the standard by which we interpret clear and certain verses.

If this basic hermeneutical principle is followed, we will soon find that we can no longer interpret all of the Bible by the Book of Revelation.

Instead, we must read the Book of Revelation through the rest of the Bible.

Historic Protestants would also insist, for example, that Revelation interprets the book of Daniel and not vice versa.

The New Testament must be allowed to interpret the Old.

There is nothing particularly difficult or profound in this, and following this basic principle of Bible study facilitates a clearer understanding of Bible prophecy.

If we begin with clear passages of Scripture, we can construct a very simple, basic model to help us with the "weirder," tougher passages.

One such approach is known as the "two-age" model. Both Jesus and Paul, for example, speak of "this age" and the "age to come" as distinct eschatological periods of time (Mt 12:32; Lk 18:30; 20:3435; Eph 1:21).

For both our Lord and the apostle, there are two contrasting ages in view. The first age (spoken of as "this age" in the New Testament) is the present period of time before the Second Coming of Christ.

The second age, a distinctly future period of time, is referred to as "the age to come."

When these two ages ("this age" and "the age to come") are placed in contrast with each other, we are able us to look at the qualities ascribed by the Biblical writers to each in such a way that we can answer questions about the timing of the return of Christ and the nature and timing of the millennium.

When we look at the qualities ascribed to "this age" by the biblical writers, we find that the following are mentioned: "homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, and fields-and with them persecutions" (Mk 10:30); "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage" (Lk 20:34); the scholar, philosopher and such wisdom are of this age (1 Cor 1:20); secular and religious rulers dominate (1 Cor 2:68); "the god of this age [Satan] has blinded the minds of unbelievers" (2 Cor 4:4); this age is explicitly called "the present evil age" (Gal 1:4); ungodliness and worldly passions are typical of it (Ti 2:12).

All of these qualities are temporal, and are certainly destined to pass away with the return of our Lord. "This age" is the age in which we live, and is the age in which we struggle as we long for the coming of Christ and the better things of the age to come.

By marked contrast however, "the age to come" has an entirely different set of qualities ascribed to it: There will be no forgiveness for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Mt 12:32); it is preceeded by signs (Mt 24:3); it is characterized by eternal life (Mk 10:30; Lk 18:30); is also denoted as a time when there is no marriage or giving in marriage (Lk 20:35); and it is which is characterized by "life that is truly life" (I Tm 6:19).

These qualities are all eternal, and are indicative of the state of affairs and quality of life after the return of Christ.

In other words, these two ages, the present ("this age") and the future (the "age to come") stand in diametrical opposition to one another.

One age is temporal; the other is eternal. One age is characterized by unbelief and ends in judgement; the other is the age of the faithful and is home to the redeemed.

It is this conception of biblical history that dominates the New Testament.

It is also imperative to see that the same contrasts which Jesus and Paul make between these two ages are in turn related to the one event that forever divides them, the return of Christ.

This line of demarcation is expressly stated in Scripture.

"The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. . . This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous" (Mt. 13:3949).

These statements are the type of clear and unambiguous texts mentioned earlier. Notice that according to this text judgement occurs immediately at Christ's return, not after a one-thousand year millennium (as in the premillennial scheme).

This is not the only line of Biblical evidence, however, for in addition to this we can find other such statements about the coming of Christ that fit very clearly into the twoage model.

According to Scripture, the resurrection of both the just and the unjust occurs simultaneously.

Jesus expressly states that he will raise believers up on the "last day" (Jn 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24).

Thus we told quite clearly that the resurrection of the just occurs on the last day, at the end of this age.

In addition, Jesus also proclaims that "There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day" (John 12:48).

Notice that the very same event is also said to be the time of judgment for those who reject Christ.

Add to these important passages those additional verses that, relate the trumpet of God to the "last day" and to the return of Christ.

The return of Christ will occur "in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed" (1 Co. 15:52; cf. 1 Thes 4:16).

Notice that there are no gaps of time indicated between the resurrection and the judgement.

These texts collectively speak of the resurrection, the judgment, and the return of Christ as distinct aspects of but one event, occurring at precisely the same time (cf. Mt 25:3146).

Premillennialists, who often chide amillennialists for not taking the Bible "literally" and who champion what they call the "literal" interpretation of Scripture, must now insert a thousandyear gap between the Second Coming of Christ (and the resurrection) and the Final Judgment to make room for the supposed future millennial reign of Christ!

And this, ironically, when the clear declarations of Scripture do not allow for such gaps.

Thus, we can conclude that "this age"--the period of time Peter calls the "last days" (Acts 2:17), and which Jesus characterizes as a period of birth pains of wars, earthquakes, famine, and distress (Mt 24, Mk 13)-ends with the return of Christ, the resurrection and the judgement on the "last day."

An event that, by the way, Peter describes like the "day of the Lord [which] will come as a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare" (2 Pt 3:10).

It is only after this that the age to come will be a present and visible reality.

Notice that the focus is not upon a half-way kingdom and somewhat improved temporal age on the earth. (i.e., a future millennium)

Instead the biblical focus is upon the consummation and the summing up of all things with the creation of the new heavens and the new earth!

The return of Jesus Christ is the key event in biblical prophecy.

For when our Lord Jesus Christ returns, the end of the age, the resurrection, the judgment, and the creation of the new heavens and the new earth are at hand!

Thus the two-age model is very simple in its structure and is based on texts that can only be described as clear and straight forward.

This enables us to make the following conclusions about the nature of the New Testament's teaching regarding the return of Christ and the timing of the so-called "millennial age."

First, the "last days" began with the coming of Christ and will continue until Christ returns (Acts 2:17; Heb 1:2). This period of time, "this age," is destined to pass away, and is characterized by war, famine, environmental distress, persecution and even the martyrdom of God's people (Rv 20:46).

While there is every likelihood that this distress will increase in the period immediately before the return of Christ, no one knows the day or the hour of our Lord's return.

Further, Jesus' birth pain imagery most likely means that we should expect alternating periods of peace and intensifying evil that will cause many to unduly speculate about the immanent return of Christ.

These are sharp, stabbing birth pains, but not they are not the birth itself.

Therefore, our preoccupation should not be with signs of the end, but instead we must be consumed with the task assigned to the church in the last days: the proclamation of the gospel of the kingdom.

Second, the return of Christ clearly marks an end to the temporal nature of life as we know it- "this present evil age."

At his return, Jesus will raise the believing dead, judge all men, and send the wicked into the fires of Hell. The elements of this Earth burn up and the new heavens and earth will be established.

This scenario completely destroys much of contemporary evangelical prophetic speculation, which advocates a "secret" coming of Christ and the "rapture" of believers (and what text can be adduced to argue that Jesus comes back secretly?) a full seven years before the final judgement at Christ's bodily return.

Does Jesus come back once or twice, with one of them being secret?

Such speculation is nonsense when viewed in light of the clear gospel texts cited above, which universally describe the return of Christ, the resurrection of the dead and the judgement of believers and unbelievers as parts of one event.

This senario also destroys the idea of a future earthly millennial reign of Christ after he returns in judgement.

Since this supposed thousandyear reign occurs after the eternal destiny of all men and women is forever settled in the judgement, the very thought of Jesus ruling over a world wherein there are still men and women in natural bodies repopulating the Earth is simply not supported by clear texts (remember the one about no marriage?).

If the millennial reign described in Revelation 20 is actually referring to a future period of time, another even more significant problem arises.

At the end of the one thousand years, John tells us that there is a great apostasy (a second fall if you will) while Jesus is ruling the nations with the rod of iron (Rv 20:710).

This sounds much more like something that would happen in this age, and when viewed against (2 Thes 2:112) an often overlooked parallel passage where a great apostasy occurs before the man of sin is revealed (v. 3), the case for a present millennial age becomes even stronger.

Since there can be no people on earth in natural bodies after the judgment (which occurs when Christ comes back according to the clear texts we have seen above), these apostates can only be those same believers that Jesus raised from the dead at his return.

In other words, if premillennialism is correct, then it is glorified saints follow Satan and revolt against Christ!

But are we really to believe that evil is not finally conquered at Christ's return-even where Jesus is physically reigning and judgement has already occurred?

Of course not, and this is self-evidently refuted by the analogy of faith, which expressly tells us that Jesus will destroy all of his enemies and hand the kingdoms of the world over to his Father (1 Cor 15:24) at his second coming.

On closer investigation, we see that the events in Revelation 20 do not take place on the Earth at all, for the thrones described in that passage are in heaven, and not on the Earth.

Furthermore, in a book such as Revelation, where numbers are always used symbolically, it makes much more sense to argue that the one thousand years are symbolic of the period of time between the first and second comings of Christ, rather than see them as a literal future period with a second fall during Jesus' kingly rule after the judgment.

Thus the existence of evil and the supposed apostasy of glorified believers in a future millennial age poses a very difficult problem for all forms of premillennialism.

Third, and most importantly, the two-age model places its entire focus upon Jesus Christ and his second coming and not on idle speculation regarding world events.

In the classical Protestant model, the next event on the prophetic calendar is the return of Jesus Christ to Earth.

In fact, Jesus may even return before you finish reading this article! The eschatological cry of Protestant orthodoxy has always been, "Maranatha Come quickly Lord Jesus!"

As with many other things in life the simplest approach may be the best. The two-age model is clear, biblical, and Christ centered.

It refuses to allow undue speculation about current events to overturn the clear teaching of Scripture. It is a shame that it has been lost to so many Christians.

Notes
1. Hal Lindsey, The Rapture (New York: Bantam Books, 1983), p. 30.

Resources For Further Study
Anthony Hoekema, The Bible and the Future (Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans, 1980).
Arthur Lewis, The Dark Side of the Millennium: The Problem of Evil in Revelation 20:110 (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1980).
Kim Riddlebarger, For He Must Reign, Cassette Tape Series (available through The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals).

As an aside, here is more:

THE FIRST RESURRECTION

The "first resurrection" mentioned in Revelation 20 corresponds to the first of the two resurrections mentioned in John 5.

To be more specific, the first resurrection in Revelation 20 corresponds to the one found in John 5:25--which verse is referring to regeneration-unto-conversion as a resurrection from a state of spiritual death. (Jesus to one of his disciples: "Follow me and let the [spiritually] dead bury the [physically] dead" - [Matt. 8:22])

THE SECOND RESURRECTION

The "second resurrection" mentioned in Revelation 20 corresponds to the second resurrection mentioned in John 5:27-29. It is the literal, bodily resurrection of all the physically dead. [At the second coming of Christ]

You sound like one of the TBN kooks.