Posted on 01/03/2003 8:35:59 AM PST by RonF
Darrell Lambert is prepared for a long struggle with the Boy Scouts of America, one decided by public opinion and not by lawsuits.
The 19-year-old Eagle Scout, the subject of national attention after being booted out of the organization last month for being an atheist, doesn't think his recent appeal will reverse his situation. Not soon, anyway.
Darrell Lambert of Olalla, who was kicked out of the Boy Scouts for being an atheist, has appealed the decision. But he says he won't go to court. "I'd like them to realize it is the moral thing to do."
"I think eventually the Boy Scouts will change," the Olalla teen said yesterday. "It'll just take longer than I like."
Lambert, who earned 37 merit badges in 10 years and assisted in leading a Port Orchard troop, sent his appeal last week to the Scouts' Western Region office in Tempe, Ariz. His letter started a process that likely could take months to resolve.
...
"Legally, (the Scouts) have a right to discriminate," Lambert said at a presentation on the issue yesterday. "Morally, they don't. That's what I'm fighting. They can't teach good citizenship and practice bad citizenship."
(Excerpt) Read more at seattlepi.nwsource.com ...
It's the speed of the effect of external forces that we're talking about here, not the BSA's own speed.
They will change with the times, or they will wither on the vine.
The BSA has often had to change how they teach the values they teach. Boys don't have to learn Morse Code or semaphore, or how to stitch up the side of a cow or how to handle a runaway horse to earn First Class any more. And Patrol Leaders can now learn about how to lead a patrol from a BSA web site. But the values of citizenship, character, and fitness that the BSA teaches are as valid now as they were in 1910, and they're not likely to have to change those in response to these times or any others.
Still looking to see examples from you about the deficiencies you've attributed to the BSA.
Sprial Scouts seems to be set up for pagans. However, it seems to me that as long as a pagan doesn't violate any of the BSA's membership standards (gender/age combinations, "avowed" homosexuality, criminal record), they are free to join the BSA as members in good standing. The BSA is not exclusively a Christian organization.
This could be more information than any of the rest of us need.
So, you see nothing wrong with a government-established/endorsed/subsidized organization that has a religious requirement for boys to enter and then, by using a government charter, doesn't allow the boys denied admission to establish their own group?
A key point, and one I'd like to see him answer to publicly. After all, after whatever point in his life (apparently prior to when he was awarded his Eagle) he decided he was an atheist, he stuck his hand up once a week or so and said, "On my honor I promise to do my Duty to God", when he didn't in fact recognize one. So, just how much honor does he have? And then there's "A Scout is ... Reverent".
< /sarcasm >
I like playing softball. The league wants me to profess a belief in fair play, and follow the rules which are administered by umpires. But let's say I say sure, but continually break the rules. I'm booted off the team. But, if a requirement of joining is to profess a belief in God and abide by moral laws, then I'm obligated to play by the rules because of my abiding by morals set down by the All-Mighty. If there is God and you believe it, then you're far more likely to play by the rules. If you are unwilling to admit a belief in God, then you are determining your own rules, and they are not morals.
So I believe there can't be morals without God.
"In fact, perhaps it even intensifies this, as an atheist wouldn't have to take into account any damage they do to someone's spiritual side."
Beleivers make living with consequeses easier by getting saved, praying, going to confession or any other manner of claiming forgiveness from god. As a non-believer, I'm stuck with "turning over a new leaf", asking forgiveness from the injured parties and demonstrating my sincerity through my future actions.
Thus, the added boost to morality due to the extra intensity of feeling guilt over damaging someones spiritual side is offset by the ease by which believers find forgiveness.
This is a point well taken. There are units in the scouts who have questioned the contested aspects of scouting, homosexuals or atheists as members or leaders. These units are in liberal areas where to discriminate in any way is considered un pc and immoral. The scouts must look beyond these local area units and realize that their principles are scouting and not change for chance sake. Another example like the YMCA is the Girl Scouts.
What about lying? What about reciting an oath to swear duty to God? How can a liar be morally straight?
On my honor, I will do my best, To do my duty to God,and my country and to obey the Scout Law. To help other people at all times. To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.
Then, the BSA receives donations from our military (courtesy of the U.S. taxpayer);
I am not aware of any direct monetary donations to the BSA by the military. BSA units and Councils do have access to purchasing surplus military property, but they share that access with all other not-for-profit organizations, so it's not special access.
access to children in public school classrooms;
A matter for local government, not the Feds. In many cases this has been revoked, and the BSA has found they have no legal right to it. In cases where it is still granted, other organizations usually have such access. And in any case, local school districts are usually pretty responsive to the wishes of the local electorate.
a few parks are maintained for the sole use of the BSA;
If you investigate such cases you'll find that the parks are in fact maintained at least in part by the BSA, and that the BSA (in the person of local units and the local Council) have invested labor, time, and capital and expense money into the property, improving them greatly. You'll also find that the public, including groups with policies in violation of the BSA's membership standards, have access to all of this, and thus the BSA does not have "sole use" of these parks. Also note that this means that the BSA is giving the public the benefit of labor, materials and money that were given for the benefit of the BSA.
and a scout automatically can qualify for a level two grades higher than anyone else upon admission into the military.
First, this is limited to Eagle Scouts; it is not granted to all Scouts. Additionally, this is also available to youth who have a number of other different accomplishments, including GSUSA Gold Award recipients, attainment of particular grade levels in school, completion of two years of community college, etc. So, again, this is something that's in fact attainable by almost anyone who cares to put forward some effort.
Can you tell I've been reading about the BSA lately?
Yes. Now try reading something written by someone who's got an opinion about the BSA that's different from your own, do some of your own research on the examples given, and dig up some facts instead just parroting the statements of someone whose equally uninformed opinion agrees with your own.
The BSA has been established [by the Government],
The BSA was no more established by the Federal Government than any other corporation that owns trademarks. If the BSA was established by the Federal Government, so is the Red Cross, the American Chemical Society, The Boys and Girls Clubs of America, the Big Brothers - Big Sisters of America, The Future Farmers of America, the GSUSA and the Little League, all of whom have Federal Charters.
endorsed, and subsidized by the government.
Any "endorsement" that it has from the Government is shared by all other educational not-for-profit corporations. It receives no direct subsidies, and any services or access it receives are those generally given by the Feds and other governments to any such organization. "Endorsed" sounds pretty vague. What do you mean by that?
It is a federally-protected government monopoly
The only monopoly it has is on it's trademarks. There is nothing to stop anyone from forming a youth group that accepts homosexuals and atheists, runs an outdoor program, uses small youth-led groups to foster citizenship, character and fitness, establishes and uses ranks to denote accomplishments, and has access to everything that the BSA has access to; all they are enjoined from doing is using the word "Scouts" in their name. I do wonder if the BSA will bother with the "Spiral Scouts".
that requires a religious test upon entrance
Yes, they do require you to profess that you believe in some kind of spirituality when you join, but I think it's important to point out that they have no requirement that you belong to any particular creed or denomination, or indeed to any established creed or denomination at all. There seems to be no bar in Federal law to allowing such a group to participate in access to Federal services.
Why?
I'd think that the possibility of being denied the opportunity to play your favorite sport, being shunned and shamed by former teammates and being labeled a cheater would keep most people from breaking the rules. It wouldn't be fun to play, anyway, if you acheivements weren't earned honestly. No god required in that little morality exercise.
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