Atheist expects Boy Scouts to change, but not soon

The Seattle Post-Intelligencer ^ | 12/30/02 | JOHN IWASAKI

[RonF]

Darrell Lambert is prepared for a long struggle with the Boy Scouts of America, one decided by public opinion and not by lawsuits.

The 19-year-old Eagle Scout, the subject of national attention after being booted out of the organization last month for being an atheist, doesn't think his recent appeal will reverse his situation. Not soon, anyway.

Darrell Lambert of Olalla, who was kicked out of the Boy Scouts for being an atheist, has appealed the decision. But he says he won't go to court. "I'd like them to realize it is the moral thing to do."

"I think eventually the Boy Scouts will change," the Olalla teen said yesterday. "It'll just take longer than I like."

Lambert, who earned 37 merit badges in 10 years and assisted in leading a Port Orchard troop, sent his appeal last week to the Scouts' Western Region office in Tempe, Ariz. His letter started a process that likely could take months to resolve.

...

"Legally, (the Scouts) have a right to discriminate," Lambert said at a presentation on the issue yesterday. "Morally, they don't. That's what I'm fighting. They can't teach good citizenship and practice bad citizenship."

[RonF]

From another source, we have another quote from Mr. Lambert:

"Teaching boys to mistrust and reject nonbelievers makes a mockery of the true moral values of Scouts," Lambert wrote in a letter to the organization. "I, personally, have not imposed my beliefs on other Scouts and ask only to be given the same consideration in return.

Mr. Lambert, and many, many other people, seem to not understand that you can teach your child that other peoples' beliefs and actions are wrong without teaching them to hate or abuse such people. Certainly many people have used such beliefs to fuel and justify hate and abuse, but that is a separate issue, and not the inevitable, or even the usual, outcome.

The BSA has an appeals process when a member's registration is revoked. Mr. Lambert is following it, as is his right.

[RonF]

Oh, one I left out.

In his letter of appeal to the Scouts' national office, Lambert said the reason for his dismissal was "un-Scout-like and un-American" and that "morals come from more than a belief in God."

The BSA has never said that morals come only from a belief in God. What they are saying is that while a belief is God is not sufficient to have morals, such a belief is necessary.

[TrappedInLiberalHell]

"Legally, (the Scouts) have a right to discriminate," Lambert said at a presentation on the issue yesterday. "Morally, they don't. That's what I'm fighting. They can't teach good citizenship and practice bad citizenship."

I would hope they have a moral right to discriminate, otherwise they would be forced to accept pedophiles, bullies, serial killers, etc. He is muddying his issue. Being a nonbeliever is not equivalent to being morally different or deficient (though some people use their atheism to justify immorality). I am agnostic, and try very hard to uphold ethical behavior in my daily life. It gives me peace of mind, even when things aren't going so well for me.

What he could, and perhaps should be arguing, is that the Boy Scouts would be in no way diminished by inclusion of nonbelievers IF they demonstrate the qualities of service, respect, and ethical behavior that they associate with believers. He'd probably have better luck if he weren't so adversarial about it. Though his above statement at least acknowledges that he understands the Scouts are on firm legal ground.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

If he doesn't like the Boy Scouts, why does he want to be one ?

[Libertarianize the GOP]

http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/bump-list

[NC Conservative]

I'd like them to realize it is the moral thing to do."

If there is no God how can their be morals?

[RAT Patrol]

So, why can't I be a member of the AMA even though I am not a doctor? They must hate me.

I want to be head of the NAACP too. And I'd like to join the NEA so I can vote against all their liberal policies even though I am not a teacher.

Hey! I'm a 41 year old female and the Boy Scouts won't let ME join. Maybe I can sue.

[NC Conservative]

their should be there

[airborne]

Have you tried to join the Boy Scouts? They do accept 41 year old females as adult leaders.

[Diverdogz]

I'm agnostic and I have morals. I do what makes me happy. It makes me happy to help others, keep myself physically fit, earn my living and have others like me. If I lie, cheat and steal, I wouldn't like myself and others wouldn't like me, either - it would cause me to be unhappy. How about that, a system of morals - no god or gods necessary.

[RAT Patrol]

But what if I don't want to be a leader, just a Scout? Is this age and sex discrimination. Also...I don't like camping so they need to change their activities to Mall shopping or something.

[dead]

Atheist expects Boy Scouts to change

They're praying for it.

[Steve_Seattle]

About 25 years ago I had occasion to visit one of the local YWCA's in Seattle. I was surprised to see that it had been taken over by militant feminists and atheists who used the facility to promote left-wing political causes such as legalized abortion and "gay rights." There was no longer anything even remotely Christian about the YWCA. Anyone who thinks that the Scouts' positions on atheism and homosexuality are unimportant side-issues should consider the fate of that YWCA. There is no such thing as "neutrality" on moral issues, and if the Scouts abandon their principles, however silly those principles may seem to outsiders, they will be replaced by other principles, and those principles would make the founders roll over in their graves. The organization will be utterly transformed.

[Consort]

The Boy Scouts are cutting their own throats. They are shortsighted and self destructive. Stupid good people are..........stupid.

[Van Jenerette]

Excellent point...either morals have their origin with a higher being and are more or less consistent or they are nothing more than the opinion of men who are making them up as they go along. As it is most judge morality as a matter of opinion - I would rather base mine on something more than current public opinion...like the majority of the founding fathers I'll stick with the Ten Commandments and Christianity...

Van Jenerette
www.jenerette.com

[Steve_Seattle]

See my post 13. The think the Scouts know what is at stake. I do not think they are stupid at all.

[RonF]

Hey! I'm a 41 year old female and the Boy Scouts won't let ME join. Maybe I can sue.

While I understand the spirit of your comment (;-) I feel constrained to point out that you *can* join the BSA. Plenty of Packs, Troop, Crews, and Ships would love to have a committed adult volunteer. A Venture Crew could especially use a 41-year old female, as Crews can be co-ed but cannot have female youth on outings unless a female adult is present.

[judgeandjury]

"Legally, (the Scouts) have a right to discriminate," Lambert said at a presentation on the issue yesterday. "Morally, they don't.

That's kind of like saying that I legally have the right to live in a big expensive mansion, but morally I don't.

[RonF]

Certainly it's a system of morals. But it's dependent on your continuing ability to reason correctly in the face of stress or unanticipated circumstances, and it's also dependent on your ability to place the welfare of others above your own when necessary. Human reason alone can build an imposing edifice, but it can also be on a foundation of sand. Faith in God gives you a basis in unchanging truths that give strong tools to face an ever-changing world. As an Episcopalian, I hold that faith is not a substitute for human reason, but a basis for it. Good luck to you.

[Britton J Wingfield]

I'm am agnostic and a former Scout. I wouldn't expect them to change to accommodate me if I decided to get back into scouting. They have their critera and the right to associate with like-minded people. This guy should join some other organization that doesn't have a theological component, or start his own. Christians have done so with groups like the Royal Rangers, and both sides were happy.

OR, he could have just kept his trap shut in the first place.