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H1b Ruined Economy
Article ^ | 12/26/02 | FlyingA

Posted on 12/26/2002 9:38:29 AM PST by FlyingA

H-1B

Some facts:

1. The economy was tubing before George JR even was elected, and way before he was sworn in as President! It started tubing in the middle of July, during the election, and basically Clinton did nothing, but campaign for his wife, and count the silverware and select furniture (and young female aids) in the White House to take with him to his new "home" in NY.

2. The boom of the 90s was in fact 90% smoke and mirrors. It was built to flip (a principle that you can find numerous articles about). Buy low, make everything look good, and then sell high before it all implodes. A very select few made millions off the scam (and it went past the point of being a business model, to the point of being turned into a scam similar to pyramid scams).

3. The IT field was already dead and flooded with H1bs by this time. IT Companies had already pushed as much of their capabilities offshore as fast as they could by July of 2000. The stage was more than set for the fall of the IT industry. And in fact had already started the decline in 98, but had been made to appear to be OK by fancy accounting.

4. A Congressman best summed up what happened in the 90s during the Global Crossing hearings with the remarks to their former CEO: "You bought what you didn't need, with money you didn't have, and wrote checks for it knowing that they would eventually bounce. You played a shell game with the money, fixed the books to make things look OK, paid yourself huge salaries and bonuses, and made a huge personal fortune out of it, and then jumped ship before it all came crashing down, leaving everyone else to go down with the ship."

Face it, H1b, the 90s was an artificial boom (scam) created by a few top executives with some "get rich quick" schemes that netted them fortunes (and we will never know how much they really made because the majority of it went into offshore accounts that the Government can't get to, or if they can, they won't blow the sources over a fraud case) and left most of the people holding an empty bag. And, the worst part is that everyone seen it coming, knew it was coming, knew it couldn't be stopped, and still ignored it because they "wanted to believe" that the good times would never end. And they really didn't end until the Government stepped in and forced the CEOs, CFOs, and top execs to be personally, punitively, and criminally liable for the financial statements of their companies in July of 2002. What you will find, as very interesting reading, are all the revised financial statements listed on or about Aug 14 2002, on the SEC.GOV site. Most Corp's had filed by July 2002, showing great profits trying to boost their stock value (another important factor in "built to flip"...make things look good). Then, all of a sudden, they (CEOs, CFOs) could go to jail for, let's call it a lack of accuracy in their financial statements, and they quickly corrected the filings, showing the real situation (which by the way they knew all the time anyway, because they had been running two or three sets of books), which was none to bright needless to say. In a nutshell, during the 90s, illegal fraud had become so wide spread that it had become accepted as normal business practices. But, that ended also.

And now we are paying for the eight years of neglect. Paying with an economy that is in shreds, fear of foreign terrorist attack, companies that are still shoving infrastructure off shore as fast as they can, and definitely not enough jobs to go around. It took eight years to get in this mess, and will take a lot longer to get out because now the laws prohibit faking a recovery with fancy accounting. If there is going to be a recovery, it is going to have to be a real recovery, built on true growth, not "smoke and mirrors" and "fancy fraudulent" accounting. A real recovery built on tangible increase not fancy accounting. And, it takes a lot longer to build something good than it does to make something look good. I have a feeling it will take another 3 or 4 years before this mess is finally fixed.


TOPICS: Activism/Chapters; Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: h1b; ruinedecononmy
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To: optimistically_conservative
CEOs and their worshippers Now, pal. I do not know about you, but I happen to have published in this area. I do not worship anything but the truth. It looks like it's time to wrap this up. I'll leave you with your perceptions of me, CEOs, and the state of the art in this area. Have a good night.
101 posted on 12/26/2002 8:58:01 PM PST by TopQuark
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To: TopQuark
So, the athlete/actor comparison is not valid.

But it is so a CEO can be paid more than the actor/athlete.

And if the profitability of the company, or stock value declines, retain this talent with increased stock options (albeit at a lower option price) and guaranteed base salary/bonuses.

But if the solvability of the corporation means sacrificing the producers of the product, that's ok to maintain the status of the CEO.

And if the productivity of the remaining producers can't make up for it, declare bankruptcy, collect your contracted golden parachute, and move to your protected multi-million dollar mansion in Florida or Texas.

I'm starting to see the light....
102 posted on 12/26/2002 9:03:28 PM PST by optimistically_conservative
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To: TopQuark
He must therefore be paid considerably more than Michael Jordan, but he is not.

If he is Michael Jordan's CEO, and the team's profitability allows a considerable payment, then by all means.

Someday, let's discuss the employment practices at SAIC as a comparison.

103 posted on 12/26/2002 9:24:29 PM PST by optimistically_conservative
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To: optimistically_conservative
Can't wait to see the "argument" against this comment!
104 posted on 12/26/2002 9:29:42 PM PST by dcwusmc
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To: TopQuark
Comparisons with the average worker's salary is the Marxist theory of value; it is the favorite criterion in Europe.

Then why is it ok to compare the salary of an average CEO of factory workers to the salary of Jordan or Sandler?

105 posted on 12/26/2002 9:41:11 PM PST by optimistically_conservative
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Comment #106 Removed by Moderator

Comment #107 Removed by Moderator

Comment #108 Removed by Moderator

To: TopQuark
I also find it insulting after you accuse me of sin

but I do try to fallow Commandments. You served as a false witness and defamed a person without any foundation.

You then protest and claim superiority for having published in economics.

I surrender no high ground to you sir, may your search for the "truth" be fruitful.

109 posted on 12/26/2002 10:02:58 PM PST by optimistically_conservative
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To: Admin Moderator
Thanks...

110 posted on 12/26/2002 10:03:45 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez
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To: FlyingA
This is like the Oliver Stone version of the '90's.
111 posted on 12/26/2002 10:06:20 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez
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To: TopQuark
Then, all of a sudden, they (CEOs, CFOs) could go to jail for, let's call it a lack of accuracy in their financial statements, and they quickly corrected the filings, showing the real situation (which by the way they knew all the time anyway, because they had been running two or three sets of books)

It's fine with me if CEO's make money but I certainly believe they need to go to prison when it turns out they're nothing but crooks. If any are found that have cooked the books, they need to serve time ---and it shouldn't be in country club prisons, let them be sent to real prisons.

112 posted on 12/26/2002 10:06:46 PM PST by FITZ
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To: FlyingA
H-1b Hall of Shame
113 posted on 12/26/2002 10:32:28 PM PST by mjp
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To: gcraig
The IT industry is not the only one hiring foriegn workers on visa's. We are now importing teachers, nurses, doctors, and all sorts of technical people. The reason for healthcare workers, young people see the working conditions of the health field and opt not to train for it. Same goes for teachers. So, until we Americans are willing to come down off our high horses and step in something ,foriegn workers will continue to take our jobs, or our jobs will continue to go to other countries!
114 posted on 12/27/2002 6:11:02 AM PST by D. Miles
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To: optimistically_conservative
You are quick again to malign, this time me.

When I said that I had published, it was offered not as achievement but an objective proof that I do not take sides and "worship CEOs," as you stated. True, this is insulting to me, and I did not feel like continuing the discussion. But I replied to your insinuation with a refutation: the work would not pass a peer review if it contained "worship of CEOs."

I have not responded with an insult but merely withdrew wishing you a good night.

You started with maligning CEOs without foundation and ended with doing that to me. Once more, instead of morally neutral explanations you prefer those that put someone in the negative light. It looks like you have a chip on your shoulder that you are trying to offload onto someone else. It's only getting bigger.

I surrender no high ground to you sir, I did not think I participated in a battle: a discussion is not wrestling. Moreover, when I do wrestle, I do not do so with children.

may your search for the "truth" be fruitful. Many thanks, I am doing fine so far and keep learning something new every day. It's always slow and difficult, but that's the nature of the beast --- especially when truth one seeks is not in the quotation marks.

Regards, TQ.

115 posted on 12/27/2002 7:33:38 AM PST by TopQuark
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To: FITZ
I agree with you that all crooks, including managers, should serve time and have other severe penulties for their crimes. Which prisons they shuld be sentenced to I am not qualified to judge. But I too would prefer sentences to be serious.

Unfortunately, morality battles cannot be won with courts. We have a culture which places smaller and smaller weight on decency and honor. Eventually, such culture produces from within itself top managers that --- surprise! --- place little weight on decency and honor. The same people that tolerated Clinton's lying in office --- not a single person resigned in disgust from his administration! --- these same people are friends, spouses, mothers, neighbors of the corporate crooks.

For several centuries, the sale of stock on New York Stock Eschange, often worth millions in todays's money, was done by a handshake. There was always a winning and a losing side, of course. But not once did reneging occur once the handshake was made. There were no laws and no centences given out. But our culture had bigger punishments in store: a dishonest person would be isolated, he would lose friends and respect of his wife and children.

When we allow swearing in public, on TV screens, etc. we signal to people that an individual has no duty to society. No people are killed, no wealth is lost from that. But this person grows up thinking that he has no duty. Some become presidents that abuse the highest office; some become CEOs that embezzle money. It is not prison sentences that we need to prevent this from happening.

116 posted on 12/27/2002 7:50:53 AM PST by TopQuark
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To: TopQuark
No chip, and I remain committed to my statement that greedy CEO/CFOs are a problem.

If pointing this out maligns these CEO/CFOs then I owe personal friends of mine and my family an apology, but I already know they agree with me.

I watched one generation of rising CEOs as a child and have participated with my friends becoming CEOs.

And IMHO, you are thin skinned while twice now characterizing me unfavorably.
117 posted on 12/27/2002 9:30:51 AM PST by optimistically_conservative
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To: optimistically_conservative
Now, where is the specific pocket filled by H1-Bs that is not available in the American marketplace?

Exactly. Scratch an economist, or economist-wannabe, and find underneath an apologist multinational shill. As with statistics, in economics one can pretty much prove anything one wants-- just divide the pie in a different arbitrary manner and presto.

At the reality level, this merits a chuckle or two. I would challenge anyone who writes favorably about H1B policy to put themselves in the trenches for a time and experience the effects of the policy firsthand-- something I somehow doubt any H1B advocates ever bother to do.

The damage is not necessarily confined to economics. We are importing thousands of workers from overseas who have, in essence, a fundamentally different idea of what government is and should do in relation to the individual. These folks have little affinity for such cherished notions as the Constitution and Bill of Rights (you will hear from them phrases such as "why do you need that? in my country... [insert third-world socialist policy here]"). Please forgive some of us if we start to roll our eyeballs on hearing this.

And then the imported workers bring their relatives with the same [third-world socialistic, but then socialistic is generally good for multinational business] views.

But, hey, narrow your perspective enough, and align your frame of reference with the current multinational policy being hawked in the bowels of Congress, and any sow's ear becomes a purse. (Now to publish... :-)

You can say that the rewards are worth the pain all you want. But it is all about incrementalism. So go ahead and publish. If we all wake up someday and find a homegrown Bhopal in our own backyards, at least we'll know exactly who deserves the credit.

118 posted on 12/27/2002 10:53:03 AM PST by SteveH
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To: TopQuark
The problem that you and I have not addressed is as follows:

H1B workers are only supposed to be used IF qualified American (home grown if you will) employees aren't available.

The problem with the Pro-H1B argument is, there are PLENTY of highly-skilled AMERICANS that are out of work, whos jobs are being filled by H1B workers. Now, I may be wrong but I thought this was illegal? The company I work for has to post a job opening and actively recruit for some specific amount of time (which I don't remember at the moment) before they can recruit/hire an H1B employee. That's part of the process of being able to hire an H1B, at least according to our HR/Legal person.

So are you arguing to employ more & cheaper H1B workers in place of American's? If I take out the value/wealth creation argument, that appears to be what you're doing. Again, I may be wrong and if so feel free to correct me.

Regards,

119 posted on 12/27/2002 10:54:56 AM PST by usconservative
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To: SteveH
Well said!

I am finding more (peer reviewed) papers now coming out of the economics and business administration study areas taking a hard look at CEO compensation and actual performance of the organization. This has been long overdue and finally reversing a trend from the counter-culture revolution and worsened during the "me-first" generation.

We lost much of our compassion for our fellow man. Some call that compassion Marxism. Others call it Christian. Regardless, I was raised by my parents and grandparents to refuse an ostentatious lifestyle because it was bad for the soul, to work hard and never feel superior to someone else. What I've found is that is a great recipe for accumulating great wealth while avoiding the temptations and pitfalls that plague the "talented" business leaders today.

Instead of teaching much of the fundamentals of good business practices, our institutions of higher learning teach how to take advantage of the system and sheeple to their own benefit. So the days of a handshake are gone, and corruption and lawsuits determine the character of business today.

In the process of moral relativism and greed is good, we've not only become more Marxist, but more Stalinistic. And I do believe that the growing gap in income between our poorest and our richest poses not only a threat to our economic well being, but also our democracy. We import the bourgeois socialist while promoting the robber-baron.
120 posted on 12/27/2002 12:06:41 PM PST by optimistically_conservative
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