Confusion over the Vietnam War [Veterans Please Bring Input]

[Arthur Wildfire! March]

My mom is really upset with a certain pundit who I'll keep nameless. It's not my intention to be negative on this. She heard someone say recently that the reason we lost the Vietnam War was because because of 'will to win' or something to that extent.

She and I both believe that the Vietnam War was winnable until we were hamstrung by the UN. When we started off, we helped the populace learn how to defend themselves. We equipped them and trained them. They learned enough that they could fight off anyone who wanted to mess them over, to draft their young men, loot their harvest, etc.

Also, we were forbidden by the UN from crossing borders. Thus, we were sitting ducks while the enemy could hit-and-run and cherry-pick their fights.

But neither my mom nor I were there. So perhaps a lot of people need educating?

To all vets who fought in that and any other war, Thank You from both of us!

FReegards....

[Terry Mross]

It was the democrat congress under the unelected Gerald Ford who cut off funding to the South Viet Namese. I spoke with a ARVN Major, a pilot, a few years ago. He said in the the end he was only given enough fuel to reach the target and return to base. The enemy would learn this and move their camp a few miles. He said he cold see it but couldn't get close enough for a strike.

Lots of ARVN troops fought to the death on a bridge in Saigon on the final day. This after they ran out of amunition. The dems got us in that war, a republican got us out, the the dems gave victory to the North.

In 1973 I was sitting on a commercial plane in Saigon on my way to Deigo Garcia when the pilot announced on the intercom that the war would end that night. A stewardess and an old seargent applauded. Everyone else went back to their magazines. By then nobody cared. Sad.

[Terry Mross]

I spoke with an old sailor at the VA hospital here in Houston a few years ago who was there at the so called Gulf of Tonkin incident. He said, as a radar operator they were all going crazy trying to find this boat that fired on our ships and it was nowhere to be found because this "incident" simply didn't happen.

[Balata]

I don't know what Kennedy would have done if he had lived, but it wouldn't have been any worse than what Johnson did.

From what I've read Kennedy knew we shoud pull out of Vietnam. Unfortunately he wasn't committed to the idea at the time of his death.

[Balata]

I lay blame with the French, Kennedy, Johnson/McNamara/J.Fonda - in that order.

I was in country Aug 72 when Hanoe Jane made her famous trip to North Vietnam. To this day the mention of her name makes my blood boil.

[ALOHA RONNIE]

NEVER FORGET

...May I invite you to my Bookmark List of Articles on the Vietnam War...

...simply by hitting the...

.. ALOHA RONNIE ..

...on this Post...?


Signed:..ALOHA RONNIE / Vet-Battle of IA DRANG-1965 / Landing Zone Falcon / http://www.lzxray.com

NEVER FORGET

[Parmy]

I have a friend who logged in 8000 combat flying hours in 2.5 tours. He told me of flying over the Ho Chi Minh trail and observing a regiment of NVA heading South. He called it in.

Two days later B-52's laid a strike on the coordinated he gave. The orders came from McNamara, himslef. What a doof.

[js1138]

Respectfully, may I add the reason LBJ put US troops into Vietnam. To keep So. Vietnam from falling to the communists before the '68 election, so LBJ would be reelected to a second term. It is no more complicated than that. (sigh)

As one who saw the '68 election from Vietnam, I can say that few things have gladened my heart more than seeing Johnson go down.

[cajun-jack]

And also, all supplies were pulled by military trucks pulling civilian trailers with the name "sea/land" on the side. Word was (is) that sea/land was owned by Lady Bird. The contract called for the military to provide all maintainence and upkeep and if a trailer became unserviceable, the military would simply pay for a new trailer. Word also was that "she" had guys all over the U.S. at every trailer auction that existed and bought every piece of crap that was up for sale. Some trailers were sent over there with rotted out floors and no axles and under the contract, if the trailer was declared "unserviceable", the military wrote mz. bird a check for the price of a brand new one.

Of course, I was not privvy to read over the "contract" so i can't testify that this was absolutely true. But I was a REMF in Admin of the 101st Abn Div Phu Bai 1970-71 and heard the same tales from more than one source.

[breakem]

Nixon's Policies

Vietnamization / Intimidation / Public Opinion /

Vietnamization Upon Nixon's presidency, he had many ideas of Johnson's that he wanted to ignore or discontinue. However, there were a few that he wanted to continue on; one of these was the "Vietnamization" policy. This policy, in a very basic and broad definition, stated that the South Vietnamese should form their own stable government without the aid, physically or economically, of the United States. Unfortunately, the South Vietnamese found this idea to be demeaning, and thus protested it (Herring, 253). They claimed that this "American" idea was absurd, because they had been at war years before Americans became involved. Though in 1970 Vietnamization seemed to have been working well, the true state of it's productiveness is still in question. "American officials claimed to have 'neutralized' as many as 20,000 members of the NLF infrastructure through the Phoenix Program, and the Communists later conceded that in some areas Phoenix was 'dangerously effective'" (Herring, 255). "The biggest question mark remained the government itself." Civilians and villagers were increasingly more reluctant to remain loyal to the South. "Desertion remained a chronic problem, and there was thus a huge gap between the authorized and actual strength of most units" (256). As talks of peace persisted, and repeatedly disappeared, the support for American support by the South Vietnamese began to lessen. During the Easter Offensive, the North Vietnamese "aimed the offensive directly at the ARVN's main force units, hoping to discredit the Vietnamization policy and tie down as many regular forces.." (271). The North Vietnamese knew that the policy was failing and the more persistent they were with it, the more likely the failure would continue.

Intimidation One of the most notable aspects of Nixon's on going ambition, is his belief in the historically known method of intimidation. He constantly made threats to the Vietnamese (northern) in order to make them fall his way. The *amusing* aspect, of course, is that this didn't work. The North Vietnamese were immune to the threats put forth. Yet, Nixon still persisted. "He seems to have reasoned that if he could mobilize American opinion behind him, peruade Hanoi that he would not abandon Thieu, and intensify the buildup of South Vietnamese military strenth, the North Vietnamese might conclude that it would be better to negotiate with the United States now than with South Vietnam later, and he could extract from them the concessions necessary to secure peace with honor" (251). This is just one example of the many instances when Nixon tried intimidation to maintain a superiority among the powers.

Public support within the United States showed a dramatic decrease when "it was clear that there would be no breakthrough in Paris" (249). Overall opinion of the war took a negative genre. Demonstrations and protests began to become increasingly more violent and frequent. March of Death and Kent State are two of the most publicized and known protests. The American citizens did not support the policies that repeatedly failed president after president. They also were tired of the lies that were being spoon-fed to them by these same presidents. "The documents [Pentagon Papers] confirmed what critics of war had long been arguing, among other things that Kennedy and Johnson had consistently misled the public about their intentions in Vietnam" (267).

"We will not make the same old mistakes. We will make our own." (Kissinger) (243)

"I'm not going to end up like LBJ holed up in the White House afraid to show my face to the street. I'm going to stop that war. Fast." (Nixon) (245)

"They'll believe any threat of force Nixon makes because it's Nixon. We'll just slip the word to them that, 'for God's sake, you know Nixon's obsessed about Communism...and he has his hand on the nuclear button'" (Nixon) (246)

"North Vietnam cannot humiliate the United States. Only Americans can do that." (Nixon) (251)

[Balata]

I was an Infantry advisor during 68 - 69. Considering the restrictions under which we were placed, our participation in Vietnam was like playing a football game with rules that do not allow our team to cross the 50 yard line but give our opponent access to the entire field. Under those conditions the best outcome we can hope for is a 0 - 0 tie.

Very good. In keeping with your football game analogy the score was posted every day on American TV in terms of BODY COUNT and KILL RATIO.

[nicollo]

Arthur, I think you have started a great thread here. While these discussions usually devolve into circle jerks (I can imagine freepers a hundred years from now launching Vietnam threads like the Civil War threads of today...), this one is a keeper.

My answer to you is that the war was lost by Johnson, but it didn't matter. Those 58,000 dead gave their lives not to defend Vietnam but to stop the Communists. They took over South Vietnam, but not after a horrid cost and a very long time.

Johnson might have won the war. Certainly would have been better had he won it, a la Korea, if only for the national pysche. Johnson couldn't win because he went at it wrong. But the decision was already taken for him. Nothing he did could change the ultimate purpose, the ultimate outcome that went far beyond Vietnam. Johnson had no choice; he could only make bad choices thereafter, not wrong choices. Ike made it for him. Ike decided that we'd keep a former Parisian waiter from taking over South Vietnam. The French had no problem with that. After giving up, they'd just as soon leave it as a tip.

Ike set the game going by putting in U.S. assets and advice. JFK could only follow with more of the same. By the time it fell upon LBJ he had no choice. He made the worst choice amongst the options given him, but that was like choosing the least ugly girl. He was already married to the girl. No manner of extra-marital affairs could change it.

By putting pressure on Vietnam, we kept pressure on Communisim worldwide. Vietnam was one battlefield, and among the most bloody. Peru, Chile, El Salvador, South Africa, Portugal, Korea, France, Poland, the American Campus... these were the others. No matter the whats, ifs, whys, and wheres of Vietnam, we won the Cold War. Vietnam was crucial to it.

To all you who fought there: it was not in vain -- no matter how awful or stupid Johnson & McNamara wanted it to be.

----

CT, thought you'd like to weigh in on this one. I haven't seen your thoughts on Vietnam. (I'm sure you'll enjoy the comment on this thread about Goldwater...)

[Balata]

"American officials claimed to have 'neutralized' as many as 20,000 members of the NLF infrastructure through the Phoenix Program, and the Communists later conceded that in some areas Phoenix was 'dangerously effective'" (Herring, 255).

An example of fighting fire with fire in terms the enemy understood.

[breakem]

I think LBJ had a golden opportunity. He was elected in Nov 64. By July 68 he could have won the war and waltzed into a second term. What a waste of lives and political power. At one time he could get anything through Congress.

[Balata]

But the decision was already taken for him. Nothing he did could change the ultimate purpose, the ultimate outcome that went far beyond Vietnam. Johnson had no choice; he could only make bad choices thereafter, not wrong choices.

With all due respect, it appears to me you are being too easy on LBJ. He made a lot of wrong choices and they were made for his own political gain. They were not made for the nation as a whole and they were definitely not made for the men and women who were there carrying out his orders.

[Balata]

You are exactly right. As far as I'm concerned he can burn in he!!.

[fire_eye]

We never lost a major battle.

There's an interesting discussion in Hal Moore's "We Were Soldiers", about that. Both the Americans and the NVA claimed to have won the battle at LZ Albany.

I couldn't understand why the NVA would make such a claim, when even after ambushing the Americans and wiping out several platoons they got creamed by American firepower. But then, it finally dawned on me: we've got different definitions of "winning".

From the NVA standpoint, "winning" just meant making us lose our nerve and pull out. If that meant committing mass suicide in human waves, that was OK, as long as there was still anyone left in Vietnam to "Build the Socialist Paradise". From our standpoint, winning meant kicking their asses militarily.

From my standpoint, Vietnam definitely lost the war - they ended up with Communism. Talk about losing... try *that* one on your mother.

[Eva]

Robert Bartley of the Wall Street Journal, wrote an article recently, that claimed that Nixon was winning the Vietnam War until Watergate took the moral authority away from him and allowed the Democrats to press their own agenda. Bartley claimed that we would have won the Vietnam war and gotten out cleanly if Nixon had not run afoul of the Democrat machine with Watergate.

[Balata]

Thanks for posting the links to Stolen Valor RC.

[jeremiah]

Your opinion is as valid as any, but why would a President put in troops to help him win the office, then withdraw his name from consideration?

[Exton1]

ping