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Arthur, I think you have started a great thread here. While these discussions usually devolve into circle jerks (I can imagine freepers a hundred years from now launching Vietnam threads like the Civil War threads of today...), this one is a keeper.

My answer to you is that the war was lost by Johnson, but it didn't matter. Those 58,000 dead gave their lives not to defend Vietnam but to stop the Communists. They took over South Vietnam, but not after a horrid cost and a very long time.

Johnson might have won the war. Certainly would have been better had he won it, a la Korea, if only for the national pysche. Johnson couldn't win because he went at it wrong. But the decision was already taken for him. Nothing he did could change the ultimate purpose, the ultimate outcome that went far beyond Vietnam. Johnson had no choice; he could only make bad choices thereafter, not wrong choices. Ike made it for him. Ike decided that we'd keep a former Parisian waiter from taking over South Vietnam. The French had no problem with that. After giving up, they'd just as soon leave it as a tip.

Ike set the game going by putting in U.S. assets and advice. JFK could only follow with more of the same. By the time it fell upon LBJ he had no choice. He made the worst choice amongst the options given him, but that was like choosing the least ugly girl. He was already married to the girl. No manner of extra-marital affairs could change it.

By putting pressure on Vietnam, we kept pressure on Communisim worldwide. Vietnam was one battlefield, and among the most bloody. Peru, Chile, El Salvador, South Africa, Portugal, Korea, France, Poland, the American Campus... these were the others. No matter the whats, ifs, whys, and wheres of Vietnam, we won the Cold War. Vietnam was crucial to it.

To all you who fought there: it was not in vain -- no matter how awful or stupid Johnson & McNamara wanted it to be.

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CT, thought you'd like to weigh in on this one. I haven't seen your thoughts on Vietnam. (I'm sure you'll enjoy the comment on this thread about Goldwater...)

But the decision was already taken for him. Nothing he did could change the ultimate purpose, the ultimate outcome that went far beyond Vietnam. Johnson had no choice; he could only make bad choices thereafter, not wrong choices.

With all due respect, it appears to me you are being too easy on LBJ. He made a lot of wrong choices and they were made for his own political gain. They were not made for the nation as a whole and they were definitely not made for the men and women who were there carrying out his orders.