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Why Doug Forrester, R-NJ, LOST and LOST Badly
11.07.02 | Rick Shaftan

Posted on 11/07/2002 4:19:30 PM PST by Coleus

WHY FORRESTER LOST - AND LOST BADLY…

Rick Shaftan

Liberal “experts” attempt to alibi Doug Forrester’s humiliating defeat saying it was because he was “too” conservative even though across the nation, conservatives like Norm Coleman, Jim Talent, Saxby Chambliss, Wayne Allard and of course Scott Garrett won unexpected or larger than expected victories.

Forrester lost badly because he never connected with New Jersey’s largest group of swing voters - “Reagan Democrats” - conservative Catholics who live along Routes 3, 17, 46 and the Parkway. And Republicans will continue to lose as long as they believe that being pro-abortion is the only way to win these voters.

Instead, judging by the campaigns and candidates Republicans have nominated over the past decade, one would think that the “swing” voter in New Jersey is a liberal woman whose can trace her ancestry to the Mayflower. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

No Republican has won a vote majority in this state since George Bush got 55 percent against Michael Dukakis in 1988. And in that time, conservative Catholic towns like Secaucus, Bloomfield, Lyndhurst and Clifton have gone from producing 3-2 Republican majorities in statewide elections to 3-2 Democratic majorities.

Now if you listen to the “experts” who have blown election after election in this state, you would think that the way to bring back Republican victories in these towns is for Republicans to move even farther to the left. To the contrary, for Republicans to win in politically marginal areas like New Jersey, they must move back to the conservative base, embrace conservative issues - not run from them - and energize the base. Consider this.

1. While Republicans around the country were making the case for GOP Senate control by attacking liberal judges, Doug Forrester actually said he would vote against conservative judges supported by President Bush - and never once attacked Lautenberg for supporting a host of leftist jurists, including those who took “under God” out of the Pledge of Allegiance.

2. Republican Party bosses and academic “experts” like David Rebovich say that conservative pro-Life voters “have no place to go” and therefore can be ignored by Republicans. But many pro-Life voters are Democrats (ditto for gun owners). Forrester, ignoring reality, got into a well-publicized spat with New Jersey Right to Life and saw his lead among pro-Life voters drop from 56-32 to 46-38 in two weeks, without any increase among pro-abortion voters. No Republican should win less than 80 percent of the pro-Life vote. If Forrester had won 80 percent of the pro-Life vote, he would be Senator-Elect today.

3. No one has yet explained how “right-wing extremist” Scott Garrett won a higher percentage than Forrester in the allegedly “socially moderate” 5th Congressional District. And don’t look for the answer in the press or from Dr. Rebovich, who always seems to be wrong - they’re still in shock.

4. Inexplicably, Forrester not once referred to Lautenberg as a liberal (neither did Haytaian in 1994 - another losing race in spite of a massive national GOP trend), even though the former and future Senator had among the highest liberal ratings in the Senate - always in the 95-100 percent range. Polling indicates that conservatives outnumber liberals in New Jersey by 2-1. But the Forrester campaign seems to have foolishly believed those numbers were reversed and that they, in fact, were really running in Greenwich Village.

5. Our polling in a variety of towns indicated a carefully targeted Democratic campaign to identify Forrester as a “right-wing conservative” among liberals. Forrester’s defensive response was to tell conservatives that he was in fact a liberal, rather than to tell conservatives that Lautenberg was one. If you’re going to be attacked as a conservative, you might as well get the upside. And that didn’t happen because Forrester was more afraid of being attacked than energizing the conservative Republican base that, outside of the 5th CD, stayed home.

6. Forrester was the only Senate candidate targeted for defeat by Sarah Brady who lost - coincidentally also the only one who never filled out an NRA questionnaire and therefore was not on the little orange postcard that the NRA sent out in other states (or the one sent promoting Scott Garrett).

7. Forrester focused his message on “integrity” (whatever that means - we are dealing with politicians here) and the “debate on debates.” By highlighting Lautenberg’s supposedly being afraid to debate they only lowered expectations. When Lautenberg held his own (all he had to do was not drool on TV) Forrester lost any remaining rationale for his candidacy.

8. The centerpiece of the post-Torricelli campaign was an endorsement by “Uncle Tom” Kean, who has not endorsed a winning candidate in a competitive race since 1985 (unless you count Bill Clinton in 1996 or Rush Holt in 1998). The Forrester campaign should have looked at Kean’s record back in 1987 at the height of his “popularity” when he endorsed 10 GOP State Senate candidates in tight races and all 10 lost (he also “un-endorsed” 3 GOP Senators, all of whom won).

Republicans continue to lose because of the leftward drift, not in spite of it. And an even bigger problem is the perception that the party is anti-Catholic. Running “Republicans” who continue to emphasize how pro-abortion they are doesn’t help. Even non-pro-Life Catholics perceive “pro-choice” Republicans as having latent anti-Catholic prejudices. The election returns back that up.

It’s been 30 years since Republicans ran a Roman Catholic in a state that is majority Catholic - that’s just dumb. And the drop in GOP percentages is not just a New Jersey problem - with “pro-choice Republicans” at the helm, Republicans have taken a major nosedive in Catholic suburbs from Boston to St. Paul in the last decade. And this will continue as long as the party is controlled by a small group of elitist rich (and of course non-Catholic) liberals who fit the stereotype of what Democrats say Republicans are.

With another great Republican election night passing New Jersey by, maybe it is time for New Jersey Republicans to follow the rest of the nation’s lead rather than defy it and move back to the right. Again and again we are told that some liberal “Republican” is the new Golden Boy, only to see them lose on Election Day. It’s time for a change and the first step should be a total housecleaning at the Republican State Committee, starting with Joe Kyrillos.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Rick Shaftan (who is not Catholic) is a political consultant for “conservatives with the guts to win.” The president of Neighborhood Research, a polling company and Mountaintop Media, which produces TV, radio and direct mail, his clients were 12-0 on Tuesday, with one race still in doubt. Among his successful clients this year were conservative Democrat Russ Pitman, who defeated 20-year liberal Republican incumbent Len Kaiser for North Arlington Mayor, conservative freshman Virginia Republican State Senator Ken Cuccinelli, and the Coalition Against the Tax Referendum which defeated a proposed Northern Virginia Sales Tax increase by a 55-45 margin.


TOPICS: Free Republic; Politics/Elections; US: New Jersey
KEYWORDS: abortionlist; catholiclist; editorial; election; forrester; gobretgo; mountaintopmedia; newjersey; nj; prolife; senator; shaftan; sprint
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To: alrea
Right on all counts. For your information, we have the largest, state-wide public payroll in the USA, approximately 20% of the NJ workforce has their salary paid by the taxpayers!!
101 posted on 11/09/2002 7:40:45 PM PST by Coleus
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To: AmericanVictory
I'm the one to ask about the continuation of the Torricelli case in the US Supreme Court. Yes, it is still live. Yes, the SC can take the case and declare that ALL actions by ALL courts to rewrite election laws in the middle of an election are unconstitutional.

That would cut off at the knees all possible efforts to get state courts to do that in the future. Unfortunately, the remedy that the US SC can apply after the election is only to declare that Lautenberg was an illegal candidate. Under Article I, only the Senate has the power not to seat Lautenberg.

Congressman Billybob

This Just In: Bush Defeats Clinton

Click for "to Restore Trust in America"

102 posted on 11/10/2002 2:44:37 PM PST by Congressman Billybob
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To: Torie
Lautenberg isn't exactly Mr. Warm and Fuzzy. He's a mean old cuss.
103 posted on 11/10/2002 6:36:53 PM PST by ambrose
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To: MadIvan
Good Point...come on down....throw your hat into the race. If you don't flip flop on the issues, I'll vote for you.
104 posted on 11/11/2002 2:03:48 PM PST by Coleus
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To: JonH
Yep, Dole was fine too on Imus and lost. The young crowd needed to see Forrester and hear him. That's why Giuliani, Whitman, Pataki and D'Amato won, they hit all voting blocks and age groups and werent' afraid to go on the show as Forrester was.
105 posted on 11/11/2002 3:45:58 PM PST by Coleus
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To: PaulNYC; tsomer; Mixer; MattinNJ; OceanKing; TomT in NJ; firebrand; KeyWest; par4; barkeep; ...
Those US Senate Candidates who WON were pro life, pro-gun and pro-private Social Security Accounts and pro (multi) tax cuts. GOP can't lose on privatization GOP can't lose on privatization

November 11, 2002

BY ROBERT NOVAK SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST

Rep. Tom Davis deserves plaudits as the superb congressional campaign chairman who led Republicans to midterm gains, but he might ponder one serious mistake. Davis advised candidates to avoid Social Security. In fact, Republicans who ignored him prospered last Tuesday.

Victories by candidates who vigorously endorsed individual private retirement accounts shattered a tenet of American political folklore: Social Security is the third rail for Republicans; touch it, and you will die. This year, almost all brave enough to touch it survived. Some who did not were losers, raising suspicion that they should have taken the risk.

The issue did not herd panicky Social Security recipients into the Democratic pen. A Public Opinion Strategies study shows a 12-percentage point Republican advantage among senior citizens Tuesday. But will a Republican White House inclined toward caution about radical domestic proposals truly embrace the issue? Conservative activists attending a closed-door meeting Wednesday morning were stunned to hear Bush policy aide Barry Jackson spend 15 minutes extolling Social Security reform, and this is not a White House whose staffers free-lance.

The third rail's failure to work did not result from lack of Democratic trying. Cookie-cutter campaigns were waged coast-to-coast, accusing Republicans of threatening elders with reckless schemes. Nobody was more aggressive than Jack Conway, a telegenic young hope of Kentucky Democrats seeking to unseat three-term Republican Rep. Anne Northup in Louisville's traditionally Democratic 3rd District (carried comfortably by Al Gore against George W. Bush). Northup was made a prime Democratic target nationally.

At one senior citizens rally, Conway displayed a chart showing slumping stock prices and asked: ''Would you like your privatized Social Security investment account to look this?'' Northup did not take Tom Davis' advice and retreat, while Conway betrayed the inexperience of a 33-year-old by admitting the alternative to private accounts. ''We're going to have to look at the retirement age,'' Conway said. ''We're going to have to look at benefit levels.'' He later took those options off the table, but it was too late.

Rep. Pat Toomey, a leader in pressing for private accounts, increased his victory margin in his Democratic-leaning Pennsylvania district. Representatives Clay Shaw of Florida and Shelley Moore Capito of West Virginia, who in 2000 narrowly won districts containing lots of pensioners, each reached 60 percent Tuesday after campaigning for private accounts. That was the position of 40-year-old corporate CEO Chris Chocola, who upset a seasoned Democratic campaigner attacking him on Social Security, former Rep. Jill Long Thompson, in traditionally Democratic South Bend, Ind. Another reformer, John Kline, defeated Democratic Rep. Bill Luther on his third try in Minnesota.

Bush's private investment plan was backed by winners of key races that recaptured the Senate for Republicans: Lindsey Graham in South Carolina; Norm Coleman in Minnesota; Saxby Chambliss in Georgia; John E. Sununu in New Hampshire, and, especially, Elizabeth Dole in North Carolina. Erskine Bowles, Bill Clinton's White House chief of staff, hammered Dole on Social Security. She responded by exhibiting a blank piece of paper labeled: ''Bowles Social Security Plan.'' The only losing Republican reformist was Sen. Tim Hutchinson in Arkansas, and he suffered from family values rather than retirement issues.

Not all Republicans were steadfast. Jim Talent backed away in Missouri and barely won his Senate seat. South Dakota's Republican candidates in close races--Gov. Bill Janklow for the House and Rep. John Thune for the Senate--retreated. Janklow won handily while Thune lost narrowly. Ten-term Rep. George Gekas of Pennsylvania came out against private accounts and was the only Republican loser in the four Republican vs. Democrat pairings of two incumbents caused by redistricting.

The object lesson came in New Jersey, where neophyte Republican Senate candidate Doug Forrester was pounded for wanting to ''privatize'' Social Security. He responded by pledging never to touch the system, and then lost badly to old-fashioned liberal Frank Lautenberg.

House Democratic Leader Richard Gephardt and his House campaign chairman, Rep. Nita Lowey, had publicly declared the 2002 election a ''referendum on Social Security.'' The verdict was delivered Wednesday by the moderate Democratic Leadership Council, which pointed out the futility of ''attacking Republicans on Social Security'' as a ''silver bullet'' and losing four straight elections.

NEW JERSEY RIGHT TO LIFE-PAC

For Immediate Release November 11, 2002
Contact: Marie Tasy, Director of Public & Legislative Affairs

(732) 846-2000
WAKE-UP CALL FOR NJ GOP: TIME FOR A CHANGE

NJ GOP bucks national trend: Pro-abortion U. S. Senate candidate Doug Forrester loses by 10 points while NJ voters overwhelmingly elect 5 out of 6 Republican Pro-Life Congressional Representatives

Once again, the NJ GOP is out of step with the rest of the nation. While many states picked up Republican U.S. Senate seats and gubernatorial victories, NJ's Republican Party once again failed to ride a national GOP wave to victory when former Democratic U.S. Senator Frank Lautenberg soundly defeated NJ’s Republican U. S. Senate candidate Doug Forrester.

“How many more elections are NJ Republican leaders willing to lose with their failed strategy of alienating the GOP's huge Pro-Life base?” asked NJRTL-PAC Public & Legislative Affairs Director Marie Tasy.

Tasy noted that since the election, Forrester has been roundly criticized by the same pro-abortion Republicans who proudly ‘stood by their man’ until the polls closed and the votes were counted.” “Before the disastrous loss, not one word of dissent was uttered by any Republican pro-abortion group or individual indicating displeasure with Forrester’s abortion position.” “Since November 5th, pro-abortion Republicans including Christie Whitman, Hazel Gluck, Roger Bodman, and the fringe pro-abortion group who endorsed Forrester (the Republican Pro-Choice Coalition) have all done a complete about-face and are now whining that Forrester lost because he was not pro-abortion enough. That’s just intellectually dishonest,” said Tasy. “It’s obvious that this faction is in damage control mode and will go to any length to perpetuate their self-serving agenda, even if it means continued losses for the NJ GOP.” Tasy said that some have even gone so far as to erroneously imply that pro-abortion Republicans fare better in statewide races than conservative Republicans. “If the assertion that only pro-abortion republicans can win statewide were correct, Forrester would have beaten Frank Lautenberg, Bob Franks would have beaten Jon Corzine in 2000, and Dick Zimmer would have beaten Bob Torricelli in 1996. The last time I checked, none of these men held a seat in the U. S. Senate,” noted Tasy.

In fact, an analysis of the last 3 NJ U. S. Senate races show the following: In 1996, pro-abortion Democrat Bob Torricelli beat pro-abortion Republican Dick Zimmer by 291,803 votes; in 2000, pro-abortion Democrat Jon Corzine beat pro-abortion Republican Bob Franks by approximately 90,000 votes; and in 2002, pro-abortion Republican Frank Lautenberg beat pro-abortion Republican Doug Forrester by 201,914 votes.

An interesting footnote not to be overlooked is that during the 2001 gubernatorial race, Pro-Life Republican Bret Schundler actually garnered several thousand more total votes than U. S. Senate Candidate Doug Forrester one year later.

“NJRTL-PAC is deeply gratified that of the 6 Republicans in the NJ congressional delegation, 5 are supported by NJRTL-PAC and can be counted on to support President Bush’s agenda,” said Tasy. “They are Frank LoBiondo, Jim Saxton, Chris Smith, Mike Ferguson and Congressman-elect Scott Garrett, the only Pro-Life Republican running in Bergen County and the only Republican to win a race in Bergen County.”

“Additionally, 4 of the 5 Republican U.S. Senate candidates who received financial support from NJRTL-PAC won on November 5th. They are Wayne Allard (R-CO), Norm Coleman (R-MN), John Cornyn (R-TX), and Jim Talent (R-MO). NJRTL-PAC also financially supported John Thune from South Dakota, who is now facing a recount because of the closeness of the final election results.”

Along with Forrester, the Republican Pro-Choice Coalition supported other big losers in NJ on November 5th. While Pro-Life Republican Assemblyman Scott Garrett easily won a landslide victory in the 5th Congressional district, pro-abortion Republican Buster Soaries lost by 20 points in what some say should have been a GOP pick-up. Also, pro-abortion Republican activist Candace Straight lost by an embarrassing margin in the Essex County Executive race.

“As the NJ legislative races draw closer and GOP leaders focus on retaking the State Senate majority, it is important for the NJ GOP to abandon the failed formulas and bad advice of the past,” contended Tasy. “The NJ GOP must give Pro-Life voters a reason to pull the lever for Republicans,” she said. “The Pro-Life vote can no longer be taken for granted; just ask Senators Zimmer, Franks, and Forrester.” “Hopefully, the NJ Republican Party will learn its lesson. If not, there will be even more disastrous election nights in the future for the NJ GOP.”

Anti-Gun Agenda Cost Candidates their Seats in the House and Senate
A Key Factor on Election Day
Socialsecurity.org
Who Won?

106 posted on 11/11/2002 6:58:46 PM PST by Coleus
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To: Coleus
Coleus,

Thanks for the ping.
BUMP for great freeping.

Regards,
LH
107 posted on 11/11/2002 7:57:07 PM PST by Lancey Howard
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To: Joe Hadenuf
Joe,

I think this thread may interest you.
I believe that this stuff needs to be spread around, especially in states like New Jersey and California where the state GOP has been hijacked by scumbag "moderates".

Regards,
LH
108 posted on 11/11/2002 7:59:37 PM PST by Lancey Howard
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To: Lancey Howard
Thanks, one of these days a candiate will read the platform of the rupublican party first before they run so they know for what a republican stands.

http://www.rnc.org/gopinfo/platform
109 posted on 11/11/2002 8:30:04 PM PST by Coleus
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To: Coleus
Coleus, you clearly deserve the title "Mr. Republican- New Jersey." Keep up the good posts!
110 posted on 11/11/2002 9:01:48 PM PST by Clemenza
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To: All
From an E-mail by Fr. Peter West.

http://politicsnj.com/BestActivists_2001.htm

Dear Friends in New Jersey,

On October 22, Doug Forrester accepted the endorsement of the Republican Pro-Choice Coalition. On October 23, I sent out an email from the New Jersey Right to Life PAC entitled "Major Blunder By Forrester Campaign"

FORRESTER CHANGES ABORTION POSITION

I know of at least two lawyers who were prepared to work for Forrester but backed away after this.

Below are just some of the reactions I received from my e-mail. I hope this will be a lesson to the Republican Party in New Jersey that the endorsement of the Republican Pro-Choice Coalition is the kiss of death.

The Republican Party needs to give us better candidates. We'll have better candidates in November if we can defeat pro-abortion politicians like Forrester in the Primary. If you are not registered in the Republican Party I encourage you to do so and vote in the Republican Primary.

Sincerely,

Fr. Peter West

#1. Sadly, I knew I'd have no one to vote for this year.... Well, another year to skip the polls. Just think of what I can do with all that extra time!

#2. I was afraid of this - he is so wishy washy

#3. After all the good hard work you put in on behalf of the unborn, I am deeply sorry that you have met with this latest disappointment in New Jersey with Forrester's flip-flop on the pro-life issue.

What little I did see and hear of Forrester did not impress me at the beginning of his campaign, I just knew that he had to be more honest than Torricelli. But now. I guess it's difficult to trust any politician.

#4. Thank you for this update.Is Forrester still considered the lesser of the 2 evils? Should we look to 3rd party candidates on election day? The exisistance of a "secret agreement" by any candidate on any issue is a
major negative.I think this about face is a major blunder.Pro-Life folks will be turned off Forrester while the pro-abortion voters have no reason to abandon Lautenberg a reliable abortion supporter.

#5. An unprincipled politician! I'm shocked!!

#6. Isn't it ashame that we have to depend on the wisdom of the voters of other states to take over the Senate, because New Jersey is only capable of voting in people who are not pro-choice. I will not shed a tear of Forrester loses so long as the more conservative and honest Republicans win
in the South and the West. New Jersey is a lost cause, I am afraid.

#7. Today's Star Ledger online details this blunder by Forrester. Forrester should make up his mind what he is for so people know how to vote. Some choice we have this year--no choice!

#8. Fr. Groeschel suggested on Sat...that NJ should have a Pro-Life Party candidate...so we can cast a protest vote against pro-choice candidates....I guess I just won't vote in this election for Senate.....

#9. Unfortunately we all knew this was the case.

#10. The state of our state is very disturbing. Forrester or Lautenberg: who do I vote for? They both, to use the vernacular of the day, suck!

I know that by voting Forrester I have a shot at getting control of the Senate back to the Republicans, who seem to support anti-abortion legislation more than Democrats do. But I feel like I am voting for one of Satan's demons. The only other option is Norman Wahner of the NJ Conservative Party (http://www.njconservativeparty.org ). They might not win, but at least they are pro-life. Maybe if enough of us voted Conservative, the Dems and Reps might take notice.

#11. Thank you so much for this warning. As Satan plays his deceit, I have a co-worker who is trying to make me vote for Forrester as the better of the choices. I was almost buying it but I still had a shred of doubt. This
confirms my suspicions.

This will be circulated in my office building of about 200 employees where this gentlemen worked the politics of pro-life vs pro-choice.

Again, thank you sincerely for keeping us informed. Your efforts to save the unborn are not falling on deaf ears.

#12. No Big Tent endorses Norman Wahner for U.S. Senator from New Jersey.

#13. I'm with you Chris. Forrester and his ilk must be taught a lesson.


111 posted on 11/12/2002 4:11:44 PM PST by Coleus
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To: Coleus
I have been meaning to Freepmail you I now currently live here in New Jersey to answer your question. Anyway I tend to believe that if the Republicans stress their new ideas Social Security Reform, Medical Savings accounts, School Vouchers etc they will do extremely well at the polls from here on out. As for the Abortion issue in New Jersey our guy got boxed in, or caught on the ropes if you will, I believe the Democrats succeeded in presenting conservatism to the swing voters as something archaic and obsolete. As for a canidate who could win and how to do that I have not figured that one out yet.
112 posted on 11/12/2002 4:33:04 PM PST by peter the great
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To: peter the great
As for a canidate who could win and how to do that I have not figured that one out yet.>>>

Neither have I.

Problem is nobody in the state knew the abortion issue since the candidate was backed by the NJ RTL and the pro-choice republicans. You can't do that and you saw what the people said to Fr. Peter, they stayed home or voted 3rd-party.

But for starters we need candidates who will not flip flop with the issues, Forrester, candidates who run the same campaing in the primaires as they do in the General, Schundler, who softened up after the primary with the issues. What we need are candidates who run campaigns like the other 7 Senators who won. Examples listed above.

Welcome to NJ.
113 posted on 11/12/2002 5:08:05 PM PST by Coleus
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To: Coleus
And this will continue as long as the party is controlled by a small group of elitist rich (and of course non-Catholic) liberals who fit the stereotype of what Democrats say Republicans are.

That's what Democrats WANT Republicans to be: A little coterie of inneffectual WASPish liberals that no one votes for.

114 posted on 11/14/2002 5:52:40 AM PST by jjm2111
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To: YankeeReb
"I lived in Northern Sussux for about 10 years, it was very republican /conservative ..much more so than where I live now in CT. I always wondered why the NJ repubs seemed so RINOish.

That's becuase it was Northern Sussex. Union, Morris, Essex Hudson, and Bergen counties are filled with wishy-washy soccer moms who vote for whom they think looks better on TV. Hudson and Essex counties are also replete with stupid Democrats who vote for whomever the nasty union man with no neck tells them to vote for.

115 posted on 11/14/2002 6:27:24 AM PST by jjm2111
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To: Clemenza
"Every picture I see of Lautenberg lately makes him seem like the bastard lovechild of Leslie Nielsen and Frankenstein." - Clemenza

Needs Repeating.

116 posted on 11/14/2002 6:36:36 AM PST by jjm2111
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To: Leto; Coleus
I remember reading a Paul Mulshine piece that mentioned how when Whitman ran for office the first time she said she would sign a concealed carry bill. Then when she actually was elected she turned gun grabber.

I was a kid when she was elected for the first time and not paying attention, but that must've REALLY pissed of conservatives in this state.
117 posted on 11/14/2002 7:08:11 AM PST by jjm2111
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To: afuturegovernor
Schundler waffled on many conservative issues instead of just defending them. Like guns.
118 posted on 11/14/2002 7:09:40 AM PST by jjm2111
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To: jjm2111
If Whitman had kept her word, this woman may still have been alive today.


Slain Teacher's Tape Reveals More Evidence


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/784701/posts
119 posted on 11/14/2002 8:12:10 AM PST by Coleus
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To: Coleus
I didn't know about that, thanks. There are many people who's lives would have been saved if NJ had some sensible gun laws.
120 posted on 11/14/2002 11:33:03 AM PST by jjm2111
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