A Middle Ground on Smokers' Rights (Fighting For Free Air)

NY Times ^ | 10/19/02 | WALTER WALDMAN

[Tumbleweed_Connection]

I would like to focus on the moral issue between smokers and nonsmokers.

Smokers argue that their personal freedoms are infringed upon by the imposition of any restriction on their habit. Nonsmokers respond that their right to breathe clean air is compromised by smokers' exhalations and burning tobacco.

There is an obvious answer to satisfy both arguments.

The law should recognize the right of any smoker to contaminate his private atmosphere in his home or in a smokers' club, so long as the pollutants are not allowed to escape into the public domain. A further concession to smokers could take the form of public facilities in which to smoke, much like public restrooms.

[Tumbleweed_Connection]

I chose this afternoon's cigar last night. If I lived in certain areas of CA some smoker nazi would be arresting me for smoking inside/outside my home. Fortunately I live in a different type of neighborhood.

I continue to read op-eds such as this which lack any medical foundation (second hand smoke). Research has proven there is no additional risk for a person living or working with a smoker and could be consistent with passive smoke having a protective effect against lung cancer, yet the anti-smoking nazis continue to bitch.

Imposing rules in areas of which people know nothing about, and labeling them as freedom ain't the American way.

[Tired of Taxes]

As a nonsmoker, I fully support your right as an individual to smoke cigarettes, cigars, or, for that matter, whatever you want. I fully support the rights of private property owners including businessowners of restaurants and so on to decide whether or not smoking is permitted on/in their property/place of business.

If you're smoking, and I choose to stand next to you, that's my problem, not yours. But, if I'm standing or sitting somewhere with my children, and you walk up, stand or sit RIGHT next to us, and light up, remember, you may have the right to smoke, but I have a right to free speech.

[Tumbleweed_Connection]

The horrid...

[Between the Lines]

But, if I'm standing or sitting somewhere with my children, and you walk up, stand or sit RIGHT next to us, and light up, remember, you may have the right to smoke, but I have a right to free speech.

Not so long ago most smokers in this country were polite and kindly asked if anyone minded them smoking before lighting up, but since the smoker persecution began these individuals have all but disappeared. Maybe all of us smoker and nonsmoker alike were better off back then. It seems as if bad laws have replaced good manners.

[SheLion]

This puke at least wants to give us the restrooms. How sweet.

[Gabz]

You are correct.

And in the scenario you show - I don't know any smoker that would either light up after arriving after you and your family or would refuse to extinguish if asked to do so.

Contrary to the portrayal by anti-smokers - the number of smokers who would insist on smoking anywhere at anytime is so miniscule as to be negligible. Unfortunately one bad apple spoils the whole bunch.

The big problem the vast majority of smokers have is that so many people have bought into the pseudo-science and lies that get continual media coverage. And what is worse is the rudeness that comes from it. It has become socially acceptable to be rude to a smoker, even if that person is in a clearly designated smoking area.

About 3 years ago I was in the local slots parlor, and actually having won something was waiting to get my quarters changed. I was in the clearly marked and heavily ashtrayed smoking section, in fact I was standing next to an ashtray. I took out a cigarette and the woman in front of me turned and barked at me - DO NOT LIGHT THAT CIGARETTE I HAVE A HEART CONDITION AND IT WILL KILL ME (or something like that). I was so stunned I was speechless. It didn't even dawn on me to question why she was in the smoking section.

[Great Dane]

Honestly, these people sound as if cigarette smoke is as bad as the aftermath of 'THE' bomb

[Great Dane]

#2.......... Thats the way it ought to be, thank you.

[Just another Joe]

so long as the pollutants are not allowed to escape into the public domain.

And so we come back to the question, "What IS the public domain?" Does it start at my front door?

[Tumbleweed_Connection]

Persecution was unwarranted and the effects are no different than what one would expect.

[RabidBartender]

"I took out a cigarette and the woman in front of me turned and barked at me - DO NOT LIGHT THAT CIGARETTE I HAVE A HEART CONDITION AND IT WILL KILL ME (or something like that)."

I am such a jerk. I would have deliberately lit up right in front of her (making sure not to blow smoke in her direction) and grinned. Back when I smoked, anyway.

MISSOURI VOTERS VOTE 'NO' ON PROP A THIS NOVEMBER 5!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tired of Taxes]

Contrary to the portrayal by anti-smokers - the number of smokers who would insist on smoking anywhere at anytime is so miniscule as to be negligible.

It happens all the time to me. And, I don't mean when I'm standing in a smoking section at a restaurant etc. We stopped patronizing certain diners because we couldn't stand coming home smelling like smoke, but we never complained.

It happens when I'm standing outside a mall or sitting on a bench somewhere even with my kids and even when I'm holding a baby or pregnant. It happens very often when we're standing in a vestibule at a store. We're there first; then someone walks in and lights up. It used to happen almost everyday whenever I was sitting on a bench waiting for the subway.

Here was the most incredible case: I was about seven months pregnant, and I was sitting at a table in a sandwich shop waiting for a take-out order. A woman who was sitting with a group of other women moved from their table across to mine, sat across from me, lit up, and smoked while facing my direction. The women at the other table asked her why she moved away. She replied, I didn't want to bother you with my smoking. Right, so sit across from the pregnant woman and smoke at her... lol.

I've never asked anyone to put a cigarette out. I just move away. But, one day someone is going to catch me in a bad mood... lol.

BTW, I grew up in a house with a smoker. No offense, but I never realized how much cigarette smoke stinks until I had moved away from it for awhile. Until then, I couldn't understand why other people complained about secondhand smoke; I even liked the smell of it.

[Gabz]

I'm sorry about your experiences, the people you encountered were terribly rude, and as a smoker, I would have told them to put it out.

With that said, if the anti-smokers (I'm not including you in that category) had stopped when reasonable accomodations were made for both smokers and non-smokers none of this would have happened.

I'm sorry about the situation outside a mall, etc., but the smokers are not the ones who caused the problem. We have been given no choice but to smoke outside in many places. How much more are smokers supposed to take.

If there is an ashtray next to a bench outside of a mall, or wherever, doesn't that show it is a smoking permitted area? Additionally, it's outside, the smoke disipates a lot quicker than the exhaust fumes of the hundreds of vehicles in the parking lots or on the street.

[Between the Lines]

Persecution was unwarranted and the effects are no different than what one would expect.

I agree.

[Tired of Taxes]

I agree that the anti-smoking movement has become extremist. You're right that many smokers are much more polite. There are bad apples on both sides of the debate.

Regarding smoking outside, it does dissipate more quickly, and I really don't mind it... except when the person is standing right there around my children who are still very young. Again, if they're smoking first, and I stand next to them, that's my problem. I wouldn't expect someone to put out the cig because I happened to appear with my kids. But, when we're there first, and the person wants to smoke, well, you'd think they'd at least step away from my little one sitting in his baby carriage... lol.

BTW, the situation you described sounds much different. The woman obviously overreacted, and I wonder if she knew she was standing in the smokers' section. I think there is a distinction between a section in a restaurant or place of business specifically designated for smokers and a vestibule or a subway bench which nonsmokers have to use, too. I agree that it should be legal to smoke on the subway platform and in a vestibule or the ladies' lounge and so on... but that doesn't make the actions of a few bad apples any less rude. ;-)

[VRWC_minion]

I am such a jerk. I would have deliberately lit up right in front of her (making sure not to blow smoke in her direction) and grinned. Back when I smoked, anyway.

Thank you. Its folks like you that insure folks like me won't have to put up with public smoking for much longer.

[RabidBartender]

"Thank you. Its folks like you that insure folks like me won't have to put up with public smoking for much longer."

Why? Because I wouldn't let someone else dictate my behavior in an area specifically set aside for that behavior?

[VRWC_minion]

Why? Because I wouldn't let someone else dictate my behavior in an area specifically set aside for that behavior?

Your right, don't let those nasty smoking nazi's tell you what to do. If some women with a heart condition asks you not to smoke and its a smoking section you go right ahead and stick up for your rights. You have no obligation to honor the request of another human being. Your rights come first before her alledged health problems.

I'm sure the rest of the community will see it your way and give you even more rights to smoke wherever you please seeing that you handled your responsibility so well.

[RabidBartender]

Isn't there some rule about the first person to bring up Hitler or the Nazis or something along those lines?

"If some women with a heart condition asks you not to smoke and its a smoking section you go right ahead and stick up for your rights. You have no obligation to honor the request of another human being. Your rights come first before her alledged health problems."

The tragic thing here is that people like this woman (and yourself, I suspect) have so villanized the tobacco users with hateful rhetoric that you believe it's alright to screech and yell when someone lights up. If the woman would have asked nicely or informed the smoker in a calm manner that she had a heart condition, I'm certain that I would act differently. But no, it's "YOU'RE KILLING ME! YOU EVIL MURDERER! YOU BETTER DO WHAT I SAY RIGHT NOW YOU SORRY SOB OR I WILL MAKE YOUR LIFE HELL BY FAKING A HEART ATTACK RIGHT NOW!"

In response to her reaction, I would have lit up just to spite her, not to exercise my rights.

"I'm sure the rest of the community will see it your way and give you even more rights to smoke wherever you please seeing that you handled your responsibility so well.<">

I am certain the community is aware of the hateful, in-your-face viciousness the vocal minority of anti-smoking community (not all anti-smokers are like this) has taken. To be completely honest with you, I stopped smoking in 1999. I was ambivalent on smoking in general until I started seeing the 'truth.com' commercials on tv, which were hateful and in-your-face. They (and other insulting anti-smoking tirades)drove me to the pro-tobacco side.

[Publius6961]

Smokers argue that their personal freedoms are infringed upon by the imposition of any restriction on their habit. Nonsmokers respond that their right to breathe clean air is compromised by smokers' exhalations and burning tobacco.

This is a parody of reality, and consequently useless as a means of reasoned and civil discussion.
First of all, neither I nor any other smokers I know feel that I must be free to smoke anywhere I like. Granted, there are boors or every side of every issue, but that is not a realistic picture of the debate.

Similarly, the anti-smoking hysteria is driven by the neurotic, the poor of spirit, the controlling types, the neurasthenic. This is specially true in the arena of second-hand smoke.
Separating these fools from the issue is the only path to an honest debate.

The odds of seeing that any time soon is, alas, a remote dream.
Unfortunately, the media (the bottom of the gene pool, generally) drives the debate, and chooses the players.