Posted on 10/19/2002 3:41:11 AM PDT by shuckmaster
Edited on 05/07/2004 9:05:57 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
With a slow, deliberate gait, H.K. Edgerton walked along U.S. 25 toward Greenville on Wednesday wearing a Confederate soldier's uniform and resting a Confederate flag on his right shoulder.
Edgerton, who is black, is marching from Asheville, N.C., to Austin, Texas, to raise awareness and funds for Sons of the Confederate Veterans and the Southern Legal Resource Center, which advocates Southern heritage.
(Excerpt) Read more at greenvilleonline.com ...
if, otoh, i've offended YOU, i'm properly sorry.
free dixie,sw
black soldiers, sailors & marines filled every sort of job in all the various CSA units.
BTW, southron units (with the exception of 3 all-black units) were racially/ethnically/religiously INTEGRATED.
SLAVES, though frequently uniformed in rebel gray & armed, often went to war with their owners as "body servants". slaves were NOT however considered "members of the force", as slaves were not free to take the oath of enlistment.
the damnyankees only had SEGREGATED units, with lilly-white officers. BTW, the damnyankees, by law/regulation paid their black troops 1/2 the pay of whites; in the rebel military, we often couldn't afford to pay ANYONE, but when we had the money, ALL ranks (regardless of race,color or religion) got paid the same, according to their paygrade.
for a FREE dixie REPUBLIC,sw
free dixie,sw
Any idea what units those fellers were with?
-archy-/-
Okay, I looked at some numbers. I can see why they didn't lose a bomber. They were given the milk runs. That is no fault of their own, higher ups pushed the buttons.
One can only imagine the chaos if they were put in a high risk escort mission and heavy casualties occurred. So, it was politically correct at the time. To sum up, light casualties, light damage to enemy aircraft, and not one Ace among the group.
What numbers? Sources?
Are you suggesting that the "higher ups' wanted the black units to fail, or succeed? And which would sending them on milkruns accomplish?
Walt
You're out of the closet now aren't you?
I've never heard anyone suggest that the 322nd was given any special treatment regarding missions. Your sources?
Walt
I'm still waiting for some back-up for your position.
I found this. It didn't take long:
"The Army, however, had serious doubts about blacks. Absurd as it may seem now, there was a fundamental belief that blacks wouldn't fight. The idea that they might make fighter pilots simply seemed ridiculous.
This belief had nothing to do with historical evidence. A black aviator, Eugene Jacques Bullard, had been one of the best pilots of the Lafayette Escadrille in World War 1. Another black flyer, James Peck, had been credited with five aerial victories while fighting for the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War. J. C. Robinson had flown in combat against the Italian invaders of Ethiopia in 1937. Yet no black pilot had ever served in the U.S. Army or its Air Corps.
Then, in 1939, the Civilian Pilot Training Program (CPTP) began operations. Of the four hundred thousand people the CPTP accepted, some twenty-five hundred were black. " Meanwhile, the pressure from the black press to have black pilots in uniform becarne intense. In September 1940, with the election near and Arnold desperate to keep the President happy, the Air Corps decided to create a black fighter squadron. It would be trained at the principal site of CPTP flight training for blacks, the Tuskegee Institute, in Tuskegee, Alabama....
Still attached to the 33rd, the 99th moved on to southern Italy after the Salerno invasion. Davis's pilots found themselves flying three missions a day to make up for the unit's small size, yet they weren't shooting German planes down. Momyer blamed this on a "lack of aggressive spirit," and claimed they shunned attacks on tough dive-bombing targets. He recommended the 99th be pulled out of combat and assigned to coastal patrols. The commander of XII Air Support Command, Major General Edwin House, informed Arnold the experiment had failed, because "the Negro type has not the proper reflexes needed to make a first-class fighter pilot."
When these criticisms were made, in the fall of 1943, Davis had returned home to assume command of the all-black 332nd Fighter Group, in training at Selfridge Field, Michigan. He was called to testify before the War Department's committee on racial policies, chaired by Stimson's chief troubleshooter, John J. McCloy.
Davis ably defended the 99th's pilots. He acknowledged that they'd made mistakes, but that was true of all green fighter squadrons. Besides, because the 99th had deployed overseas under- strength and had not received the flow of promised replacements, his men were flying considerably more missions than their white counterparts."...
Shortly after this the 99th was attached to the 79th Fighter Group and moved fo the outskirts of Naples. On January 27, 1944, six months of drought ended. Despite having to fly obsolescent P-40s, the 99th's pilots shot down eight German aircraft over the Anzio beachhead. The next day they shot down four more. These twelve victories cost the squadron just two planes.
German attempts to crush the Anzio beachhead in February failed. Shortly afterward the 79th Group turned in its P-40s for P-47Ds. ThC 79th was one of only two fighter-bomber groups in the Mediterranean and, as described earlier (page 225) its main task was ground support. It had considerably fewer opportunities for dogfights than other fighter outfits. This frustration apart, the 99th Squadron was happy to be part of the 79th Group. The group commander, Lieutenant Colonel Earl E. Bates, accepted it as a welcome addition. He treated it no differently than other squadrons.
There was no reason why he shouldn't. A Statistical Control Division study of the records that spring showed that the 99th's performance from July 1943 to February 1944 had been, on balance, much the same as that of other P-40 squadrons in the theater.
In the meantime, the 332nd had arrived in Italy. General John Cannon, commander of the Twelfth Air Force, didn't want it. He got Baker to offer the group to the Fifteenth. Twining wasn't enthusiastic, but a suggestion from a theater air commander is really an order."
The 332nd rapidly won the acceptance of Fifteenth Air Force bomber crews. On its second mission, June 8, it was assigned to provide both penetration and withdrawal escort for the 5th Bomb Wing, which would bomb the submarine pens at Pola. The target was heavily defended by flak. B-17 pilot John Muirhead of the 301st Bomb Group was impressed. "When they joined us, precisely at the time they were supposed to, it was a spectacular rendezvous . . . suddenly the air was full of P-47s, diving and whirling through our formations. . . . [Then] they formed about five hundred feet above our planes, throttled back in a prim, decorous line. . . . Once established in their positions, the P-47s never left us. When we reached the IP, they showed no inclination to turn away from the flak rising up ahead. I couldn't believe it. . . .
"They flew through the clouds of bursting shells with deliberate aplomb, sharing the fearful passage with us as though they were performing a routine duty guarding us from any German fighters who might dare to presume we were vulnerable. It was a grand gesture, for they must have known that enemy fighters would no more enter the barrage than would our own; they would always wait for us to come out of it. . . . The insouciance of our black friends was too brazen, too brave for me to remember them in any way but as the best of shepherds."
In July the 332nd transitioned into Mustangs, and was joined by the 99th Squadron, which had also recently received P-51s. Most of the 99th's pilots were dismayed at this transfer. Being part of the 79th was a step toward integration; being part of the 332nd was a step back toward segregation. The experience the 99th brought to the group was nevertheless valuable. It became the boast of the 332nd that not one bomber it escorted was lost to enemy fighters.
--Winged Victory, pp. 380-82 by Geoffrey Perret
This was interesting:
"On the steaming night of June 6, 1863, four rebel regiments surprised black guards. The black novices, soldiers for only sixteen days, fumbled with their guns, fell back, stood firm, and flashed their bayonets. The blacks' white captain called the ensuing bayonet brawl "a horrible fight, the worst I was ever engaged in—not even excepting Shiloh."
In one ironic tableau, a Union black and a Confederate white lay slain, arms locked like brothers, each with the other's bayonet planted in his belly. At last, a Union ship reinforced the unyielding blacks, and the rebels retreated. Black soldiers, declared an astounded Confederate battle report, resisted us "with considerable obstinacy, while the white or true Yankee portion ran like whipped curs."
One Confederate master suffered the best proof of black obstinacy. His slave captured him "and brought him into camp with great gusto." A Wisconsin cavalry officer described the lesson many Northerners learned from Fort Wagner and Millikens Bend (and from the battle for Port Hudson, Louisiana, where black troops futilely charged and their bodies were left to rot under the blazing sun), "I never believed in niggers before, but by Jasus, they are hell for fighting."
--"The South vs. the South" p. 127 by William Freehling
Guess those white boys just weren't suited for fighting.
Walt
Captain Roscoe Brown of the 332nd's 100th Squadron shot down an ME-262 on March 31, 1945.
You don't seem to have your facts in hand.
Walt
ME-262's had a top level speed of @ 540 MPH vs the P-51 Mustang's top speed of 440 MPH. Due to the almost experimental nature of the metallurgy, the jets had to take off, and slowly increase their speeds before making short flights --usually less than an hour -- before returning to base where they had to reverse the procedure to land. There's a great account by Willi Heilmann, author of "I Fought You From the Skies", who relates that the job of protecting the jets during these two processes fell to him and his squadron of propeller driven FW-190's. They'd take off and fly cover for the jets, then do this again while the jets landed. On this particular day, a flight of 4 ME-262's departed, and when they returned, they were closely followed by about EIGHTY P-47 Thunderbolts. Uh oh. The Germans had 12 prop fighters in cover. The Americans shot down all 16 Germans, with a loss of 7 pilots. That is how the ME-262 was defeated. Unwary ME-262 pilots could also be attacked from a dive from above.
Walt
There is no credible of as many as one hundred.
Walt
But I think I hate this guy anyway:
"Roscoe C. Brown, Jr. was a member of the Tuskegee Airmen in World War II. Lt. Brown flew as a flight leader for the 100th Fighter Squadron of the 332nd Fighter Group, which deployed to Italy for combat in December 1943. The 100th FS began combat operations flying the P-39Q in February 1944. In May, the squadron received the P-47D and began flying long-range bomber escort missions. By July 1, 1944, the squadron received the North American P-51 "Mustang". Lt. Brown's flew the P-51D-15 serial number 44-15569 with "buzz number" 7. He christened her "Bunnie" after his infant daughter.
Lt. Brown was part of the March 24, 1945 escort mission where Col. Davis led 59 planes of the 332nd and escorted B-17s of the 15th Air Force on their 1,600-mile roundtrip mission to bomb the Daimler Benz tank works in Berlin. On this mission, while over Berlin, the bombers were attacked by German Me 262 jets and Me 163 rocket fighters. On this mission, three Me 262 jet fighters were shot down, two more Me 262s, one Me163 rocket fighter were claimed as probables and three Me 262s as damaged. Lt. Brown shot down one of the three German Me 262 jet fighters. During the entire war, only eight Me 262s were shot down and the 332nd claimed 3 of these in one mission!
One week later, on March 31, 1945, on a fighter sweep the 332nd engaged the Germans in a dogfight over Linz, Austria. In their best day ever, pilots of the 332nd shot down 13 German aircraft without a loss of their own. One of these was a FW-190 credited to Lt. Brown. Lt. Brown was promoted to captain and commanded the 100th FS until he returned to the States in October 1945. For his service Captain Brown was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross and Air Medal with eight Oak Leaf Clusters. He was recently recognized by the Intrepid Air & Space Museum for his outstanding leadership as squadron commander.
After the War
After the war, continued his education receiving his doctorate from New York University. Dr. Brown is currently Director of the Center for Urban Education Policy at the Graduate Center of the University of New York. He is past President of Bronx Community College of the City University of New York. He started and was director for seven years of the Institute of African-American Affairs at New York University. He has served as a faculty member of West University State College and as a full time professor at New York University. Dr. Brown is an author of widely-read reference works and more than 60 articles in scholarly journals.
Dr. Brown serves on the boards of many non-profit organizations. Dr. Brown has served as Chairman of the New York City Regional Educational Center for Economic Development. He is a member of the National Board of the Boys and Girls Clubs of America and has served on the Board of the American Council on Education. He also serves on the boards of the YMCA of Greater New York, the Fund for the City of New York, the New York Botanical Garden, the New York City Partnership, the Museum of the City of New York, the City Parks Foundation, and the Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt. Dr. Brown is also Chairman of the Greater Harlem Nursing Home and the Sports Foundation, and is Past President of One Hundred Black Men, Inc., an influential group of civic-minded Black New Yorkers. He is also Vice Chairman of the Black Leadership Commission on AIDS. He has been appointed by the Governor to the New York State Job Training and Partnership Council, and the New York State Health, Fitness & Sports Council. He chairs the Urban Issues Group, a think tank devoted to the concerns of the African American community. He is an avid runner who has competed in the New York City Marathon nine times."
I notice that the 332nd transitioned into Mustangs in July, 1944. The Luftwaffe had already been shot to pieces, largely by US aircraft operating from Britain. In both March and April, 1944 the Luftwaffe lost over 2,000 aircraft. The Inspector General of the fighter arm, Adolf Galland (who later led JV-44, the first ME-262 unit) said that the destruction of the fighter arm was upon the Germans. In May, June and July, the German Air Force made almost no interceptions of USAAF incursions. On August 15, large numbers of GAF fighters rose and were again savaged by the 8th and 9th Army Air Forces flying from Britain. If you visit the Air and Space Museum, you'll see Keith Ferris' magnificent full size painting of the B-17 "Thunderbird" of the 303rd Bomb Group (Heavy). It portrays events of this mission.
The record shows that the vast majority of kills by USAAF pilots in Europe came before the summer of 1944, a time when the black pilots were flying the very obsolete P-40 in ground support missions.
Walt
Yeah, including that 1,600 mile round trip to Berlin on 3/24/45.
Walt
FYI, combat engineers in the southland's service were called either sappers or pioneers.
SOME Asian "adventurers" were actually recruited in Java & other far eastern areas as "boarding party members" (read PIRATES, i suspect) for CSN commerce raiders & privateers. MOST were paid as "casual day labor", but some evidently were actually enlisted in the CSN.
for dixie,sw
free dixie,sw
nothing more,nothing less.
free dixie,sw
nothing more,nothing less.
You a big fan of e.e. cummings? Nevermind.
"Robert Krick, author of 10 books on the Confederacy, has studied the records of 150,000 Southern soldiers and found fewer than a dozen were black. 'Of course, if I documented 12, someone would start adding zeros,' he says."
-- Wall Street Journal, May 8, 1997
That's what you did. Add zeros to the number of blacks who fought for the so-called CSA. You even added a couple of commas that the record won't support.
Free Dixe cups now.
Walt
even you, IF YOU WERE HONEST, would NOT be able to deny the valiant service of tens of thousands of FREE black soldiers,sailors & marines who HONORABLY served the southron cause. but then, of course, you'd HAVE to admit that the WBTS, for the union side, was ONLY about CONQUEST of a smaller, poorer,weaker foreign country, rather than a crusade against slavery OR to "perserve the union".
free dixie,sw
"came down from the north"?
There were 300,000 southerners in US service at the end of the ACW. Heck, there were more blacks in US service than there were whites in rebel service. That's a hoot, isn't it? At the end of the war:
Total under arms for the so-called CSA: 155,000
Blacks under arms for the USA: 175,000.
If there were 100,000 blacks in the insurgent armies, what happened to them? Lee had less than 8,000 men with him at Appomattox.
Walt
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