Marines in fatal assault had no ammo

CNN ^

[Bill Davis FR]

When U.S. Marines were fired on by two Kuwaiti nationals during a training exercise Tuesday, they had no way of defending themselves, U.S. officials said.

The Marines were practicing urban warfare tactics on Failaka Island in the Persian Gulf and were carrying no ammunition for their weapons, U.S. officials said.

[hosepipe]

"Thank goodness for your post. For a minute there I thought we had all forgotten that the important thing is to blame Clinton for the Marine's death."

Sorry, would'nt wanna do that. Marines die. Thats what the red stripe on their uniforms mean. They are there to die. Thank God for them. They are the wall between us and them. They are there so WE can enjoy "handleing the truth".

They are our Klingons, every death is honorable.
By the way did you know that Clinton had full dress Marines serving as waiters at some of his DC partys so that the FOB's could laugh at them..."handle that"

"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his." George Patton

[Young Werther]

This may be late to this post but the "MPs" were armed and did their duty.

The Air Force stopped hauling around A-Bombs on training missions when the mid air occurred over Spain. Mind you earlier accidents which left radioactive garbage in Greenland and off the coast of the Carolinas did not inititally change the policy.

Be that as it may, "Rest in Peace Marine" We Will remember your service and sacrifice.

[aristeides]

And that despite the fact that the U.S. embassy in Yemen was on high alert because of threat warnings.

[xzins]

It would be interesting to determine the alert status of the embassy in Kuwait....and if they issue rounds to their guards.

Commanders are so worried about an unwelcome incident if they issue live rounds to their troops. There should be a point at which the alert level/danger level in a particular area makes them liable for incidents in the opposite direction; i.e., our troops who are killed or injured due to overly sensitive or cautious commanders.

If the embassy alert level was in the danger zone, then these commanders should be held accountable for underarming their troops.

[XJarhead]

Cynicom, you seem to be assuming that the policy of not giving live rounds to troops involved in non-live fire exercises is simply a product of bureaucratic inertia, or a failure to adapt the particular exercise to the particular situation.

I think that assumption is unwarranted. As myself and other guys have posted, we have personal experience with training accidents and the risks of using live ammo in training. The policy is a result not of a mechanistic following of "procedures", but rather a result of years of experience in weighing the relative risks of issuing live ammo on such exercises.

It's like friendly fire incidents. During the Gulf War, we made a conscious decision to move very rapidly, fully recognizing that this would result in some increased confusion on the battlefield, and increase the risk of friendly fire casualties. But the tradeoff was that the enemy would be even more confused, and so less able to mount an effective resistance. We might suffer more friendly fire casualties, but those would be more than offset by the reduction in casualties from hostile fire. It's a calculated weighing of the relative risks that is equally applicable to the policy of not issuing live rounds on non-live fire field exercises.

The deaths may be "unacceptable" to you, but the fact is that some deaths are inevitable when you're dealing with war and the preparation for war. That doesn't mean that every death is "okay", or that there aren't times that fault should be apportioned and heads role. But that does mean there are times when you make good decisions that necessarily include the risk that someone may be injured or killed. But just because someone is injured or killed does not mean that the decision was wrong.

[lepton]

Guards should have live ammo. People training by simulating shooting at other soldiers should not have live ammo.

[lepton]

In fact, I can't think of any exercises I've been on overseas where it wouldn't take more troops to guard the entire training area than would be training in that area.

And even at that, the training area would undoubtedly be drastically reduced.

[lepton]

Am I to understand that if given a clip of ammo, told to put it in their pocket, for use only in emergency, that our marines are so untrustworthy that they would shoot each other????

Out of any large group, someone is gonna get antsy and make a mistake. It's just one more thing to add to the confusion.

[lepton]

but normally guards are always allowed live ammo

I agree with the rest of your post, but I was put on guard duty several times with no ammo. Heck, they didn't even give us an empty magazine so they can fake it. It heavily depends on the political situation at the time.

[centurion316]

4.2

"Stripper clips in a pocket?"

Unfortunately yes. I have seen a soldier in a blank firing exercise with MILES, take a stripper clip with ball ammunition that he had squirred away on a live fire range, and load it into a magazine. Fortunately, someone saw him do this and called a cease fire. His explanation: "I forgot, I thought it was blank". Sierra happens. Be careful out there.

[lepton]

During the Gulf War, we made a conscious decision to move very rapidly, fully recognizing that this would result in some increased confusion on the battlefield, and increase the risk of friendly fire casualties. But the tradeoff was that the enemy would be even more confused, and so less able to mount an effective resistance. We might suffer more friendly fire casualties, but those would be more than offset by the reduction in casualties from hostile fire. It's a calculated weighing of the relative risks that is equally applicable to the policy of not issuing live rounds on non-live fire field exercises. The deaths may be "unacceptable" to you, but the fact is that some deaths are inevitable when you're dealing with war and the preparation for war. That doesn't mean that every death is "okay", or that there aren't times that fault should be apportioned and heads role. But that does mean there are times when you make good decisions that necessarily include the risk that someone may be injured or killed. But just because someone is injured or killed does not mean that the decision was wrong.

Excellent summary.

[xzins]

Below I have posted the first portion of the state department's information sheet on Kuwait -- obtainable on the web. Notice the date is 12 Aug 02, approximately ONE MONTH ago. Under the section on safety and security notice that Americans are urged to exercise a HIGH level of security awareness.

Not giving live rounds to troops operating in Kuwait is a matter of negligence and should be pursued/prosecuted. This is especially true in light of their own fact sheets.

Kuwait - Consular Information Sheet

August 12, 2002

COUNTRY DESCRIPTION: Kuwait is a constitutional hereditary emirate with a mixed economy. Day-to-day life has returned to normal after the 1991 Gulf War, and facilities for travelers are widely available. The workweek in Kuwait is Saturday through Wednesday for most businesses and government offices; it is Sunday through Thursday for commercial banks.

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS: Passports and visas are required for U.S. citizens traveling to Kuwait. For further information on entry requirements, travelers may contact the Embassy of Kuwait at 2940 Tilden St., N.W., Washington, D.C. 20008, telephone (202) 966-0702, or the Kuwaiti Consulate in New York City, telephone (212) 973-4318. Information also may be obtained from the Consulate's Internet home page at http://www.undp.org/missions/kuwait. Additional information may be obtained from the U.S. Embassy Kuwait home page at http://www.usembassy.gov.kw.

In an effort to prevent international child abduction, many governments have initiated procedures at entry/exit points. These often include requiring documentary evidence of the relationship and permission for the child's travel from the parent(s) or legal guardian if not present. Having such documentation on hand, even if not required, may facilitate entry/departure.

AREAS OF INSTABILITY: Travel to and near the Iraq-Kuwait border is very hazardous. U.S. citizens having legitimate work-related business near the border may receive updated information from the U.S. Embassy and may also wish to consult with their employer's security personnel. Unexploded bombs, mines, booby traps, and other items remain present in some areas in Kuwait. U.S. Embassy personnel are advised to use caution if traveling off paved surfaces outside Kuwait City.

SAFETY AND SECURITY: Americans in Kuwait should exercise a high level of security awareness. The Department of State remains concerned about the possibility of terrorist attacks against United States citizens and interests throughout the world. Americans should maintain a low profile, vary routes and times for all required travel to the extent possible, and treat mail and packages from unfamiliar sources with suspicion. U.S. citizens also are urged to avoid contact with any suspicious, unfamiliar objects, and to report the presence of such objects to local authorities. The U.S. Embassy in Kuwait urges all Americans to be wary of unexpected visitors and to pay particular attention to suspicious vehicles. Any suspicious activity or vehicles should be reported to the Embassy's regional security office.

[XJarhead]

Not giving live rounds to troops operating in Kuwait is a matter of negligence and should be pursued/prosecuted.

I'd bet you'd be among the first screaming for heads when some LCpl gets a burst in his torso because some numb nuts mistakenly put live rounds in his rifle during MOUT. I can hear it now: "What idiot gave live rounds to troops firing at each other in a training exercise? Whomever ordered that was negligent and should be prosecuted!"

There's a difference between reading books about the military and knowing how troops actually operate in the field. There is one unalterable truth about every military operation: troops and officers will make bad decisions and screw up. Anyone who thinks otherwise is living in some computer-game/internet fanciful world that bears no relation to reality.

[fourdeuce82d]

take a stripper clip with ball ammunition that he had squirred away on a live fire range, and load it into a magazine <p) Yikes! fair enough.

[xzins]

I'm a retiree.

The USS Cole; Kohlbar Towers; Afghanistan War; Al Queda....

Please stop me when you figure out that the area is a danger zone.

Wake up......damn marines. :>)

[Terriergal]

I don't recall on the USS Cole... that is news to me.

But even the most conscientious gun owners say don't keep your snap caps and live ammo together. I would imagine it would be dangerous to send these guys out with a couple mags of each, in case in the excitement of the exercise someone grabs the wrong mag. Again, I say, they should have set up a perimeter guard.

This is a tragic event, of course. I can't see how it was avoidable. My guess is these two bungholes who shot at the Marines and afterward got what they deserved only served to steel the remaining Marines' resolve against them.

[OKSooner]

Maybe there were some security people deployed for the exercise, who did their job when the shooting started?

[XJarhead]

I'm a retiree.

Okay, xzins, you're a retiree.

The USS Cole; Kohlbar Towers; Afghanistan War; Al Queda....

What does that have to do with anything? Nobody disputes that the Mideast is generally a war zone. Nice tactic, though. Ask me to defend decisions that I never supported in the first place. Guards anywhere should have live ammo. Including the guards on the Cole, at the Kohlbar Towers, etc.

Doesn't change the fact that we'd have a lot more than just one death if we issued live ammo to everyone participating in a non-live fire field exercise.

[Son of Rooster]

182,
maybe some jobs in the AF maybe like that. Wanna join me in some ABGD or MOUT training courses...might change your mind. You seen any combat besides on t.v.?

SOR, former m-60 specialist, 81170

[flyer182]

So you are going to hang your hat on a mout course? Be glad to show you some pointers, and yes to your second question. And how is that warrior week going?