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FreeRepublic , LLC PO BOX 9771 FRESNO, CA 93794
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Posted on 10/09/2002 6:56:25 AM PDT by Bill Davis FR
Edited on 04/29/2004 2:01:24 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
When U.S. Marines were fired on by two Kuwaiti nationals during a training exercise Tuesday, they had no way of defending themselves, U.S. officials said.
The Marines were practicing urban warfare tactics on Failaka Island in the Persian Gulf and were carrying no ammunition for their weapons, U.S. officials said.
(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...
First, you're completely shifting your argument now. Your initial point was that it was wrong not to arm the participants in the exercise with live ammo, and that's the point I've been addressing. Don't try to saddle me with defending other positions I never took.
As for the NEW point you are now raising, the article really doesn't provide enough information to assess who should be blamed. And I'm not going to start blaming particular people without knowing all the facts. There are just far too many variables. For example: whether or not Kuwaitis were involved in the exercise, the geographic layout of the training area and its generally accessibility, the practicality of establishing an impenetrable perimeter around the training area, etc.
The mere fact that a Marine is dead does not mean that another Marine failed to do his job. After all, people do die in combat without it being anyone else's "fault".
A gentleman, thank you...
I have grown tired over these many years, having our young men murdered, in foreign countries, under hostile conditions. All to often, unarmed, no one accepts responsibility. I am sorry but their deaths are unacceptable to me. I would not want to be the one that had the job of telling his Mother the circumstances of his death. That a killer just drove up and shot him, but all the regulations were being followed to the letter. Sad...
Lest anyway wrongly believe I am anti military or such, I go way back, my brother never came back, I got home with my hide intact. When someone dies under such circumstances as this, I feel I have a right to question and condemn the military. We paid our dues, in full.
This happens very rarely.
On the other hand, you are willing to accept the chance of a soldier or Marine jacking live ammunition into their weapon during the exercise and killing themselves or someone else.
Given how often that happens when the exercise personnel take every measure to ensure that no one has live ammunition on their person in the exercise area, one can be reasonably assured that accidental discharges of live ammunition will be extremely common if every soldier or Marine is carrying some.
It's a matter of managing risk. You seem to be willing to accept a much higher casualty count as long as those casualties are self-inflicted.
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FreeRepublic , LLC PO BOX 9771 FRESNO, CA 93794
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Clinton holdovers, are more dangerous than Al'Qida I believe..
How to get rid of them. Its almost impossible to fire/get rid of a fed.gov't employee because of the Federal Workers Party Union.. much worse than the longshoremen.. bcause their parasites on the treasury producing nothing.
CBS News | Standing Guard With No Ammunition? | November 14, 2000
Cole, but not the no-arms story
The two statements I made are not contradictory - SOME of the sailors had arms without ammo, OTHERS had arms with ammo (according to the official report), but the ROE prohibited first fire. This information is contained in the official report - which runs about 70 Mb in size.
Looks like we're going to have to beef up security for our troops even in training areas. Sign of the times . . .
USS Cole Sailors Told Not to Fire First Shot
I apologize for the snippy comment above, regarding the self-contradictory nature of my original post. You are correct, my original statement was far from clear. Let me know if you want a URL for the official DOD report. I don't have it handy. Snowe sent me the URL, AFTER September 11, 2001, and after I reminded her office that she had yet to make a substantive response to my November, 2000 inquiry to her regarding the Wash Post and CBS articles (I asked her if they were true).
Deployed troops are sometimes required to make do for training. One must conduct such where all but participants are removed or disallowed and access controlled buy real world no BS security .
Not being knowledgeable of the layout of the training area or how many civilian caretakers are still on the military controlled island I'll just be glad the killers were removed from the gene pool. Hopefully a purge is being conducted of all non military personel who are there.
Stay Safe !
You do have the right to question and condemn, although I believe condemnation in this case isn't warranted. The regulations are in place to avoid needless death. ROE are in place to avoid the US military precipitating needless deaths through action, as well as to avoid provoking "international incidents".
I agree that this letherneck's death is a tragedy, as well as a crime. I just don't believe that the criminal acts of two Kuwaitis should be blamed on what I consider sensible training rules. I would hate to be the commander tasked with calling their families. It is truly the most terrible job ever, in or out of the military.
That's true.
The DOD report is off-line, while the DOD conducts a review of its contents. Probably a smart move, as the report specifically describes parts of the USN command and control hierarchy.
Freep mail me if you want to continue discussion re: contents of the official report.
It's a shame that Marines in a training mission were attacked, isn't it?
My pleasure to provide the references. Aye, it is a rotten shame. I agree with the bulk of the posts in this thread though, live ammo is inappropriate for many training exercises, and it is too easy to be a Monday-morning quarterback.
Stripper clips in a pocket?
not suggesting we make that part of the TOE for a non-live fire exercise, but I don't think they're that much of a threat, either.
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