Marines in fatal assault had no ammo

CNN ^

[Bill Davis FR]

When U.S. Marines were fired on by two Kuwaiti nationals during a training exercise Tuesday, they had no way of defending themselves, U.S. officials said.

The Marines were practicing urban warfare tactics on Failaka Island in the Persian Gulf and were carrying no ammunition for their weapons, U.S. officials said.

[XJarhead]

When you are in a potentially hostile area you need to have ammo.

No. No. No. You do not issue live ammo to anyone who is participating in a non-live fire exercise. In 1985, two Korean civilians were accidentally killed during Team Spirit because two knucklehead Marines who thought they had blanks fired on them and killed them. I personally saw a knucklehead Lt. in training who thought he had blanks loaded in an M249 send a burst of live rounds over the heads of a group of his buddies, fortunately missing them all. And you don't issue them both blanks and live rounds "in case" something goes wrong, because that's exactly how accidents happen. A guy grabs a magazine that he thinks has blanks, it has live rounds instead, and someone dies.

Of course, you're still going to have armories and supply points that do have live ammo in case the balloon goes up when you're in theater. And ammunitions guards, etc., also are issued live rounds to guard the ammo dumps and trucks. If something happens, you issue people the live stuff. But troops that are training are not simultaneously on 30 second alert to repel attacks, and so you do not give them live ammo.

Everyone remembers that the guards at the Beirut marine barracks didn't have ammo either.

Ugh. Of course those guards should have had live ammo. But that's because they were GUARDS, not participants in a training exercise.

Lord, save us from the amateurs.

[cynicom]

cent...

Not particularly interested if you are or are not impressed with my opinion.

Training exercises in a foreign country, loaded with terrorists, in this dangerous climate, with no ammo is stupid. If the marines are so well trained, why is it hazardous, or perhaps they are not well trained. One or the other.

[Bill Davis FR]

...leave it to the professionals...

at least the professionals would make sure the training area was secure...

[drjimmy]

SOMEBODY had some bullets. The story is inconsistent.
Those who actually read the article instead of shooting from the hip will find that the story is not at all inconsistent:
"U.S. military police chased down the two assailants, who were dressed in civilian clothes and driving a pickup truck, and shot them dead, according to the officials."

[XJarhead]

Your point about there needing to be more security in the area may be legitimate. Of course, I've been in plenty of places where locals have some access, and you can't guard against one of them whipping out weapons and blasting away. The fact that those guys were shot and killed indicates to me that there was security present, and probably reasonable security at that.

But the point the original poster made, as opposed to your point, had nothing to do with local security. He was flabbergasted that the Marines on the exercise were not issued live ammo, and THAT argument is indefensible.

[JoeSixPack1]

Well, sorry, but this is not a paint ball game.

When you issue live ammo to Marines, enemy combatants will die.

This excercize is SOP for the last 225 years. The shooters are room temp right now thanks to those in charge.

My patriotism and sorrow is extended to those families of our lost warriors.

Semper Fi.

[MP5]

They might hurt themselves

You would be surprised how many Marines get hurt/maimed/killed during training exercises.

[g'nad]

Thanks for injecting a little sanity...you saved me some typin'...

Semper Fi

[fogarty]

Agreed. Marines don't train force on force with live ammo. I remember using that crappy MILES gear too, with blanks. Blanks were horrendous - bad carbon buildup to clean and jamming. Those BFAs didn't help matters either.

I've heard the MILES 2000 gear is a lot better.

[XJarhead]

at least the professionals would make sure the training area was secure...

I've been on tons of training exercises in foreign countries, and you simply do not establish tough perimeter security around the entire training area on the bizarre chance that some nut with a death wish is going to start shooting. You generally don't have enough people to do that, and frankly, its a waste of manpower.

From this point on, they may do that. But the effect will be to lessen dramatically the quality and frequency of training because you'll have troops who should be getting trained guarding the training area instead. In fact, I can't think of any exercises I've been on overseas where it wouldn't take more troops to guard the entire training area than would be training in that area.

[MP5]

Blanks were horrendous - bad carbon buildup to clean and jamming

You got that right! Seemed we were at the armory for a week cleaning the carbon off that weapon. Good 'ole CLP!

[Sonar5]

Hi All,

Every excersise I ever trained on was a no live ammo excersise. Live ammo was only used on a live fire controlled range.

facts

1) This entire island is supposed to be empty except for civilian contractors.
2) The terrorists were killed by Military Police of the 11th Marine Force. They always, always have ammo when operating in a Law enforcement capacity.
3) It is also possible that it could have been Marines on Guard Duty that killed them. Although they say MP's. I'll wait for the official Marine Corps Press Release.

This is a tragic event, and those to blame are the terrorists, or the ones responsible for area security, unless these unfortunate Marines were that security. But If they were on Guard Duty, they would have had ammo as well.

Clinton's fault. I don't believe so. It is a breakdown in security procedures, though. Much like the Cole attack.

May God Bless those marimes, and their families and friends.

Semper Fi,
Joe

[Chairman_December_19th_Society]

"U.S. military police chased down the two assailants, who were dressed in civilian clothes and driving a pickup truck, and shot them dead, according to the officials."

Then how do you have a firefight? I stand by my comments.

[JoeSixPack1]

It was the suppressors we had to use to cycle the gas which chambered the round that really ticked me off. Cotton packing in the round would jam the crap outta my old 14.

[cynicom]

Am I to understand that if given a clip of ammo, told to put it in their pocket, for use only in emergency, that our marines are so untrustworthy that they would shoot each other????

If the area was secure, why did the MPs have ammo???? Who did they not trust, the marines?????

[Prodigal Son]

When you are in a potentially hostile area you need to have ammo. Everyone remembers that the guards at the Beirut marine barracks didn't have ammo either.

Uh, no. If I were in a rifle platoon and we were practicing Urban Warfare- kicking in doors, rushing into buildings from different entry points- I do NOT want the other guys to have live ammo. We did this type of training in my platoon and within four hours we had managed to shoot each other three times with blanks. You have to learn how to not shoot everything that moves when you're doing this type of thing and practicing with live ammo is a just asking to have training accidents that result in death. Not worth it.

If they are in a hostile area- they should be overwatched by guards with live ammo, but if they are doing the training itself- no ammo- UNLESS it is a live fire exercise.

[Yasotay]

You are 100% correct. Good posts.

[rstevens]

Military Police, like civilian policemen, always cary live ammo. Its their job to enforce law and order. Soldiers and Marines, when conducting non live fire exercises, actually that is the only kind of training excerise, use blank ammo. This is for the very reason pointed out above, to keep from having the troops kill one another, unintentionally.

Typical knee jerk reaction from non military people.

Not sure sure about the Kobar Barracks incident, but normally guards are always allowed live ammo. I'd rather this statement, of them being unarmed, be verified.

[centurion316]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but don't expect anyone who knows something about combat, training in combat zones, and force protection to support your position. The news stories do not provide sufficient information to support the conclusion that you reach.

Remember, even if these Marines did have live ammunition, the outcome might have well been the same: two marines hit in the first burst, marines return fire and kill the terrorists. Just a thought.

[William McKinley]

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