Marines in fatal assault had no ammo

CNN ^

[SLB]

Can you believe some of the posters to this thread? I guess they wanted the added realism of Marines shooting Marines. If they were doing MOUT training and I was the OPFOR I would hope they did not have live ammunition. Can you imagine the clamour if they would have used paint balls? Or how about MILES?

[andy_card]

I would be interested to learn where these Kuwaitis got their AKs

There's no shortage of AKs in the world, particularly in the Middle East. I was in the region a couple of weeks ago, and at one point a Dubai street vendor tried to sell me one. I don't know what their firearms laws are like (and I was in no hurry to find out), but they're certainly around.

[centurion316]

cynicom,

You are confusing two different issues. The first issue concerns security personnel in combat zones or danger areas who are not carrying live ammunition or who are prohibited from loading their weapons because of excessively restricted Rules of Engagment (ROE). On this point, you are correct - we have become so risk adverse that we are putting soldiers in danger. The Beruit bombing was a case in point, the security guard had no magazine in his weapon and therefore could not react in time.

However, mixing live ammunition with blanks in a training event is an entirely different matter, as others on this thread have pointed out. Its not a matter of trust, its a question of safety.

Losing soldiers in combat as a result of enemy fire is a gut-wrenching experience. But, it pales to the stomach turning shock you experience when a soldier dies in an accident or from friendly fire. You NEVER forget it. Such incidents are all too common in a combat zone, and good leaders take well reasoned precautions to prevent it.

[PhilipFreneau]

Unbelievable. This compares to living in Philadelphia, Camden, Detroit, Chicago, or Washington DC with no means to protect yourself, foolishly relying on the Police for protection.

[Lazamataz]

While all you say is correct, it is probably prudent to have a perimeter around the training area with non-participants who have live ammo.

At least in a potentially hostile area like Kuwait.

[cynicom]

Terri...

We all understand the basic fundamentals of the exercise. This particular exercise is being carried out in a foreign country, where many people do not like us, in a time that has terrorists striking nearly at will.

Military thinking is that we have zero ammo, because that is the way it has always been done, regardless of time and circumstances. Just perhaps the military does need some re-thinking. I refuse to believe that our marines could not be trusted to act accordingly as ordered, if given ammo for emergencies. Yet it appears that is the case as stated by others on this thread.

Just a reminder, am I correct in remembering that on the U.S Cole, there was no ammo allowed or am I mistaken????

[aristeides]

There is a good chance that somebody in local security tipped off the killers.

[semaj]

"Everyone remembers that the guards at the Beirut marine barracks didn't have ammo either."

Actually it was even worse than you say. The Marines at Beirut had ammunition but were forbidden to have it locked and loaded in their weapons. Orders such as those need to be heartily disobeyed (for any active harheads listening).

[MortMan]

Training exercises in a foreign country, loaded with terrorists, in this dangerous climate, with no ammo is stupid. If the marines are so well trained, why is it hazardous, or perhaps they are not well trained. One or the other.

Stop yammering a minute and listen to the voices of experience on this thread. I ran numerous shooting ranges for the Army, participated in countless non-live-fire exercises, and was part of the Gulf War. I've had to both plan and execute such training exercises as this.

No live ammo is issued to the participating troops in a force-on-force exercise to preclude accidental deaths. It is hazardous to allow live rounds because Marines are well-trained in killing the enemy, which in this case was either other US Marines or friendly troops from Kuwait (I'm not sure which).

Being that this is a war zone, as you have so ably noted, the Marines provided non-participating guards armed with live ammo to protect the participating troops - witness the dead attackers.

Finally, with respect to the idiotic insinuation that the denial of live ammo to force-on-force exercisers is a stupid idea, I only have one question for you. Do you check to see if your handgun is loaded by pointing it at your friend and pointing the trigger?

[cynicom]

Mort...

I do not respond to personal attacks. Keep it on the subject please.

[dark_lord]

I would be interested to learn where these Kuwaitis got their AKs

Are you kidding? Kuwait is one of the most heavily armed places on the planet! Its one of those places where armored personnel carriers with .50 caliber machine guns sit in the traffic circles (they drive on the right like Americans but have traffic circles like the Brits.) Lots of guns available - both because it is part of their culture, and because they well remember the Iraqi invasion.

[ladtx]

Right you are XJarhead. There are some truly clueless people on some of these threads.

SCOUTS OUT!

[Sonar5]

Cynicom,

You said:
"Military thinking is that we have zero ammo, because that is the way it has always been done, regardless of time and circumstances. Just perhaps the military does need some re-thinking. I refuse to believe that our marines could not be trusted to act accordingly as ordered, if given ammo for emergencies. "


As a Marine that served 6 years in the Fleet, I can categorically declare that Marines on an Excersise CANNOT BE TRUSTED WITH LIVE AMMO. Period. Case Closed.

That is why we have Military Police and a Standing Guard Detachment on all excersises. This was a Perimeter Breach IMHO, and that is what they will address.

Marines are trained to kill, and guess what. If you give them Live Ammo, they will fulfill your idea of a mission and kill. Except it will be another Marine, as has happened in othe live fire excersises on controlled ranges.

Folks, use a little common sense, and heed the advice of those who served, and have the inside knowledge of attitudes, training, and benefit of experience to know what works and what does not.

IMHO, this was most likely a breach, and new procedures for these excersises will be enacted.

Regards,
Joe

[XJarhead]

I refuse to believe that our marines could not be trusted to act accordingly as ordered, if given ammo for emergencies.

Your refusal to believe in reality doesn't change that reality, and any commander who believes that even the most well-trained troops never make mistakes is an armchair commander at best.

[Cogadh na Sith]

I was the OPFOR I would hope they did not have live ammunition.

Yeah, you cannot mix live ammo and blank ammo--guaranteed that someone will screw up in the heat of training and kill someone.

That being said, once you confiscate an individuals source of protection, it's the responsibility of the trainers to ensure the security of the troops--something that is often overlooked.

I was on an FTX and got into a fight with a mountain lion. I didn't get hurt, but I did have to smack the hell out of it with my 'rubber ducky' M-16. I felt pretty stupid being unarmed out in the wilderness and I pointed that out to one of my pals out there (he was SF going through MIOBC with me) and he pulled a hammerless snub-nosed .38 wrapped in a greasy rag out of his cargo pocket.

I took the hint and started doing the same. Is it 'against regs'? Yes. Will I get punished if caught with such a thing? Yes. Is it the right thing to do? Yes.

[cynicom]

Jarhead...

One young marine is now dead. That was not planned for or covered in the rules of the exercise. The basic fact is that the young man is dead, is there going to be anyone held accountable for this death, or is this also covered in the manual. These people were allowed to drive right up to the marines with a pickup truck, with several weapons. If this is not acceptable in the manual, who is to blame for his death??? No one???

[fourdeuce82d]

Every non-live fire training exercise I ever organized or led began with checking each Marine to ensure that they did not have any live ammunition.

I remember that from the army back at bragg- but there were a couple of guys in my platoon who always carried a couple of stripper clips in a cargo pocket. I wonder if the some of the EMs will start making that a practice, regardless of what the chain of command says.

[John H K]

One of the problems with FR is people holding forth at length about subjects they know absolutely nothing about (particularly when they're "outraged" and people actually LIKE being "outraged.")

What amazes me about this thread is despite the original posters and people who agree with them being set straight quite early on by a wide variety of people such as yourself who DO know what they are talking about, they're still persisting. Amazing.

Of course the other issue is that if every Marine in the exercise DID have live ammo the Marines that were killed would be just as dead under that scenario; in fact, nothing about this would be different.

[MortMan]

Actually, you're right in one respect to my post - I was too heavy on the sarcasm regarding your pointing out the dangers in the area surrounding the exercise.

Evidently I was also hamhanded with my dismissal of you "one or the other" comment, so I also offer an apology for the way it evidently read.

To be less emphatic in my point, allow me to rephrase:

Giving live ammo to force-on-force exercise participants is analogous to playing Russian roulette. It is very, very probable that someone will die by accident. Giving live ammo to those participants' guards, however, is both prudent and safe, except for attackers such as those two in Kuwait.

Once again, I'm sorry that you deemed what I wrote offensive, as well as being sorry for the specific instances cited above. I stand behind my point, which has been restated above in less vitriolic manner.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

Everyone remembers that the guards at the Beirut marine barracks didn't have ammo either.

Wrong. They had ammo, they were not allowed to chamber any rounds.