Marines in fatal assault had no ammo

CNN ^

[Bill Davis FR]

When U.S. Marines were fired on by two Kuwaiti nationals during a training exercise Tuesday, they had no way of defending themselves, U.S. officials said.

The Marines were practicing urban warfare tactics on Failaka Island in the Persian Gulf and were carrying no ammunition for their weapons, U.S. officials said.

[Bill Davis FR]

can you believe this...military personnel posted to a war zone with no ammo...best of the desperate are in command...thanks bill clinton...

[McGavin999]

Bill, did you read the article that you posted?

[cynicom]

Real ammo??? They might hurt themselves... Stupid military.

[Howie]

When I first learned of this incident I thought "the ragheads are getting braver, they actually attacked someone that can shoot back!".

I should have known.

[jbstrick]

"non-live fire exercise..."

This is why the Marines did not have ammo. It was a training exercise.

[LarryM]

When you are in a potentially hostile area you need to have ammo. Everyone remembers that the guards at the Beirut marine barracks didn't have ammo either.

[XJarhead]

Clearly, the people who think this is a big deal have no military experience with combat units.

According to the link, this was a non-live fire exercise. Such exercises are extremely common, because you cannot train against an opposing force with live ammo. Otherwise, you'll be killing your own people. There have been plenty of training accidents where exactly that scenario occured --troops who were supposed to have blanks only somehow ended up with live rounds. In most cases, nobody gets hurt. But in some very tragic ones, people have been killed.

Every non-live fire training exercise I ever organized or led began with checking each Marine to ensure that they did not have any live ammunition.

[Bill Davis FR]

haha...you must be one of the best of the desperates...the middle east is not a training exercise area...

[centurion316]

Using live ammunition in a training exercise not designed for such use is extremely hazardous to the health of young marines.

Since the terrorists have assumed room temperature courtesy of the USMC, we can deduce that someone did have live ammunition, knew how to use it, and swung into action when required.

When I hear the voice of ignorance calling someone stupid, I am not impressed.

[fogarty]

Bill Clinton has been gone a long time now. Be assured if the Marines were not carrying ammo, it was due to the Rules of Engagment (ROE_ set by much higher up than Clinton-holdovers. Put the blame where it belongs: Rumsfeld and the Operational Commanders. And if there are Clinton holdovers, why has not Rumsfeld gotten rid of them?

The cornerstone of leadership is responsibility and accountability. If the ROEs are STILL screwed up now, after two years of Bush in office, then the buck stops with Rumsfeld. The buck stops with them.

[centurion316]

"Every non-live fire training exercise I ever organized or led began with checking each Marine to ensure that they did not have any live ammunition. "

The voice of reason amongst the cacaphony of ignorance. Thank you for educating the clueless.

[Chairman_December_19th_Society]

Early in the article:

The Marines were practicing urban warfare tactics on Failaka Island in the Persian Gulf and were carrying no ammunition for their weapons, U.S. officials said.

Later:

The shootout happened about 11:15 a.m. (4:15 a.m. ET) Tuesday...

SOMEBODY had some bullets. The story is inconsistent.

[fogarty]

One thing to look at is local security. If in fact Marines were undergoing a training exercise with no ammo in a particular sensitive area of the world (with almost all forces at Force Protection Alpha or Bravo), you would think there would local security assigned, with live ammo. At the very least, road guards with live ammo.

We need to look at the ROE for the MAGTF, who established it, and why. Idiotic ROEs have caused the deaths of Marines before - and it may be the case here also.

[Bill Davis FR]

...The cornerstone of leadership is responsibility and accountability...

it will take ten years to replace these best of the desperates...in the meantime men will die...

[Seruzawa]

There is no excuse for this. If the marines in training are not issued live ammo then there should be suffcient external security posted to prevent such attacks.

I don't believe how many people are willing to excuse this sort of incompetence.

[mg39]

"can you believe this...military personnel posted to a war zone with no ammo...best of the desperate are in command...thanks bill clinton..."

It is October, 2002. What on Earth does Clinton have to do with any of this? It's one thing to criticize Clinton for his real misdeeds, but blaming him for everything that goes wrong borders on lunacy.

[centurion316]

"haha...you must be one of the best of the desperates...the middle east is not a training exercise area... "

You might be given more credence if you limit your comments to those subjects where you are better informed. Training occurs routinely in combat zones. If it is not, you are in real trouble. Do not try this at home, leave it to the professionals.

[xsrdx]

Of course they didn't have live ammo- they were training in a force-on-force exercise. However, they likely had non-exercise security also.

SOMEBODY shot back, quickly, because the terrs are KIA.

[dwilli]

I am flabbergasted that someone is startled
that the military does not use live ammo in training exercises. It is plain that security and live ammo was in the area.