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Defense has had no shortage of witnesses to make its case
SignOnSanDiego ^ | July 14, 2002 | Alex Roth

Posted on 07/15/2002 6:55:50 AM PDT by MizSterious

Defense has had no shortage of witnesses to make its case

By Alex Roth
STAFF WRITER

July 14, 2002


A week ago, Janet Roehr, a neighbor of David Westerfield's, testified at his murder trial about some of his routines, including his occasional habit of parking his motor home in front of his house.

Her testimony lasted 15 to 20 minutes, but what she said wasn't as important as what she did: She smiled at Westerfield.

Roehr was among a parade of defense witnesses who consider themselves friends of Westerfield's and who seem to like him, even as he stands accused of kidnapping and killing 7-year-old neighbor Danielle van Dam, who disappeared from her bedroom in Sabre Springs in February.

At various times during the trial, those witnesses have grinned at Westerfield, winked at him and laughed in his direction. One witness gave the 50-year-old design engineer the thumbs-up sign while leaving the courtroom.

Whatever else Westerfield's attorneys have accomplished so far, they have succeeded to some degree in humanizing their client. Legal experts said the importance of this achievement shouldn't be underestimated in a case in which the jury must decide not only guilt or innocence but also, potentially, whether he deserves the death penalty if convicted.

"They give the picture of Westerfield being a pretty normal middle-aged, middle-class guy," said San Diego defense lawyer Robert Grimes, who has been following the case. "It makes the jury wonder: Could this person really have done this horrible crime?"

During the guilt phase of a trial, rules of evidence place limits on character evidence ? that is, testimony about a defendant's personality. Nonetheless, a jury can get some feel for a defendant by sizing up his friends and evaluating how much those people stick up for him.

Several neighbors, some camping buddies and a female friend Westerfield hung out with at a Poway bar have testified. In large part, they were "people who seem like nice, ordinary citizens," said San Diego lawyer Mike Still, a former prosecutor.

One of the defense's most powerful witnesses was Westerfield's former girlfriend Susan L., who cried while acknowledging she still cares about Westerfield but hadn't seen him since shortly before his February arrest. She dated Westerfield for about three years after his divorce from his second wife. (Her last name is not being published to guard the identity of her daughter, who also testified.)

Her affection for Westerfield seemed genuine, although she admitted on cross-examination that he changed when he drank alcohol, that he once became "forceful" when drunk, and that he once waited outside her house.

In some ways she was a terrific witness for both the defense and the prosecution. For the defense, she made the point that Westerfield is a man who can attract a woman who seems sweet and normal. For the prosecution, she illustrated that Westerfield might have a dark side that goes beyond his alleged habit of collecting child pornography.

In addition to showing the jury that Westerfield has friends who care about him, his legal team has succeeded in raising questions about some of the prosecution's theories in the case, some legal experts say.

For instance:

 Prosecutors say Westerfield engaged in suspicious behavior by embarking on a meandering, two-day journey in his motor home on the weekend Danielle disappeared. He went from Coronado to the Imperial County desert and back again, traveling back roads and getting stuck in the sand twice along the way, he said.

But several defense witnesses testified that within the esoteric subculture of San Diego County motor-home enthusiasts, Westerfield's behavior wasn't necessarily that weird. It's not uncommon to drive back roads as a way of taking in the scenery and avoiding high winds on Interstate 8, they said.

 Prosecutors noted that Westerfield, who is compulsively neat and organized, took off that weekend without putting away his garden hose, which was uncoiled on the lawn. This shows he was in a hurry, they say.

But Westerfield's former girlfriend said it wasn't unusual for him to toss down the hose in the front yard before leaving on a motor-home trip. She also said the motor home got stuck in the sand during several camping trips she took with him.

 Prosecutors called a volunteer who testified that his cadaver-sniffing dog reacted to a side compartment of Westerfield's motor home during a search at a police impound lot.

Under questioning by the defense, he revealed that he never told police about his dog's behavior and that he was much less definitive about his dog's reaction in an e-mail he sent to the dog's breeder several weeks later.

 Prosecutors say child pornography found on computer disks in Westerfield's office prove he has a sexual affinity for young girls.

But a computer expert hired for the defense suggested that at least some of the pornographic images might have been downloaded by Westerfield's 18-year-old son.

Meanwhile, the prosecution ? which has succeeded in presenting a powerful body of forensic evidence linking fibers, blood and hair from the girl to Westerfield's house, motor home and sport utility vehicle ? stumbled once or twice in the past week.

Prosecutor Jeff Dusek leaned on several defense witnesses in a way that might cost him some credibility with the jury, legal observers say. And he may have come across as unnecessarily mean-spirited when confronting witnesses whose testimony conflicted with the prosecution's theory of the case.

"Prosecutors wear the white hat," said Still, the former prosecutor. "Don't beat up on witnesses you don't need to beat up on."

But Dusek had his stellar moments, too. His questioning of the defense's star witnesses ? insect expert David Faulkner ? was one of the most effective, and important, cross-examinations of the entire trial.

On direct examination, Faulkner, an entomologist with the Museum of Natural History, said flies on the girl's body indicated it was dumped at a time when Westerfield was already under 24-hour police surveillance.

But on cross-examination by Dusek, Faulkner appeared to contradict himself, admitting that strange weather patterns in February ? as well as the imprecision of the science ? made it impossible to know precisely how early the flies had infested the girl's body.

At the start of the trial, lead defense attorney Steven Feldman promised that the insect expert's testimony would exonerate Westerfield.

"Science is going to come to Mr. Westerfield's rescue," Feldman told the jury.

But by the time Faulkner left the witness stand, many of the jurors had stopped taking notes. They will be the final arbiters of whether Faulkner's testimony was relevant, and whether it made any sense at all.


Alex Roth: (619) 542-4558;


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Extended News; News/Current Events; US: California
KEYWORDS: 180frank; danielle; kidnap; lynchmob; vandam; westerfield
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To: MizSterious
Miz, that was a very gracious thing you did for us...$$$$$$...

Thank you very much.

sw

61 posted on 07/15/2002 10:46:53 AM PDT by spectre
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To: All
From UCANSEE2's collection of DAW thread goodies:

OFFICIAL DW TRIAL THREAD GLOSSARY

ACQUAINTANCE - Someone you know and haven't considered having over for sex.

BARBED - Having reached the point of being too hot to handle for either the prosecution OR the defense.

BEETLEMANIA -

CAPED OUTFIT - An ensemble including, but not limited to black catsuit, invisible cloak and ruby slippers accessorized with dust rag and febreze. When donning this ensemble the wearer will have special powers which include the ability to be stealth, hide in extremely cluttered closets, levitate, and clean entire rooms in an amazingly short amount of time.

CONVERSATE, CONVERSATING - To speak with another person whether or not they are speaking to you.

DUSEKED - to have your fragile house of prosecutorial cards collapse when your witness is FELDMANIZED

FAULKERNIZED - a natural process whereby maggots destroy a month's worth of court testimony in two hours.

FELDMANIZED - Judicially castrated; having reduced a reasonably intelligent witness to a blithering blob with the coherence of Rain Man and the believability of x42; usually accompanied by rhythmic thumping of DA's head on table. See DUSEKED.

FIRECRACKERS - A bunch of noise and sparks, a little fire, but mostly smoke, and then after a while, they are gone.

FISHES-AND-LOAVES PIZZA - A seeming unending supply of pizza. Can be bought at NOON on a Friday, and it will feed a family of 5, then will feed the same family of 5 + 2 more guests until 8:30pm, then will feed Mom,Dad, and four guests around 2am Saturday Morning.

FRIEND- Someone you have or are considering inviting over for sex.

GRACEFULL - full of self-importance (as in Nancy Grace), much to the annoyance of others

HELLOCINATING - the Swing Set's delusional belief that everyone they met wanted to come home with them.

HTML CODE SHRIEKING/ CODE SHRIEK - repeated use of large, colorful fonts in posts. To the annoyance of some, the amusement of others, and the bafflement of newbies.

IMMACULATE ABDUCTION - The kidnapping of Danielle Van Dam by an unknown (alias STEALTH NINJA DAVE), who broke into a locked house, which had alarms, and a dog, and a father and three children inside. He kidnapped the young female, while drunk, carried her out of the house, flew her to his motorhome (see CAPED OUTFIT), and murdered her. While in the house, he left no prints, no DNA, no hairs, no fibers, not one piece of evidence he was ever there, and neither the dog, the father, nor the two other children ever noticed anyone had been in their house and walked past their open bedroom doors.

INSECTOPHILE - To be conversant in life cycles and mating of obscure insects, sprinkled with multi-syllabic terms from college-level biology and meteorology. Caused by prolonged exposure to a BUG GUY.

INTIMATE FRIEND - Someone you have had over for sex.

NEVER-ENDING JOINT - A rolled cigarette of marijuana (wackyweed) that can be smoked by four people at 8:30pm , then smoked by four or more people several times in the parking lot of a bar, then can still be smoked by six people in a garage , at 2 in the morning. (Save the roach!)

PIZZA-EATERS - Usually a group of five or more of guests and/or family members that is customarily needed to eat a never-ending pizza. See: FISHES-AND-LOAVES PIZZA

PIZZA PARTY - After coming home from the bar at 2am with friends, new friends, total strangers, you head to the garage for PIZZA. (PIZZA, a.k.a. drugs, sex)

PREMATURE ACCUSATION - An arrest by police of a suspect before they have done investigative work on all of the evidence which might indicate which suspect is the most likely perpetrator.

RECREATE - (1)To relax, rusticate.
(2)Visit Silver Strand Park

SCAPECOAT - the jacket owned by DW with a spot of Danielle's DNA on it.

STEALTH NINJA DAVE - (1)David A. Westerfield
(2)To possess the ability to drink large quantites of rum & Coke or other alcoholic beverage, do a shot, and then sneak into a house full of people and dog and abduct a child. See: IMMACULATE ABDUCTION.

SLUTJACKALS - (1)a bisexually aggressive female type species, without scruples, restraint, or moral fiber. Willing to settle for anything that satisfies basal desires and is in any way considered momentarily convenient.
(2)Masters of deceit, sinister, cold-hearted, savage creatures which prey upon ambushing unsuspecting neighbors.

SWING-SET - For those who don't like playing in the sand box. Usually a set of six, who share the set and enjoy highs and lows.

SWINGER-SIX a.k.a. PIZZA-EATERS - Brenda, Barbara, Denise, Larry, Mo and Curly

THREADHOUND - Someone who sits on the threads all day, and howls and yells at anyone that won’t agree with them.

VAN DAM DAMN VAN - a blue van used in Damon Van Dam's wild ride through all the probable dump sites for Danielle's body on the weekend of Feb 16th. Although Damon does not report having found the body that weekend, the flies did. Now missing in action.

VAN-DAMNED-IF-I-KNOW - A poster who joins mid-thread and mid-trial and has less than a thimbleful of information, but spouts off anyway.

62 posted on 07/15/2002 10:49:59 AM PDT by shezza
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To: Defiant

Janie's Got A Gun -  Aerosmith

DAMON'S GOT A GUN

Dum, dum, dum, oh no what have I done?
Dum, dum, dum gonna buy a big ole gun.
Dum, dum, dum, just wanna have some fun?
Dum, dum, dum swing is not for one!!!!

Damon's got a gun
Damon's got a gun
His whole world's come undone
From swinging hard and having fun...
So what did this daddy do?
What did he put Danielle through?
When Westie was arrested they found him cleaning up his things....
But Westie, has it comin' Now that Damon's got a gun he ain't never gonna be the same.

Damon's got a gun
Damon's got a gun
Mad-dogging day's begun
His swinger pals are on the run
Tell me now it's untrue.
What did Danny's daddy do?
Pierce thinks he jacked that little baby
Swinging drove Da-man insane
They say the spell that he was under the weird occultic number....

Run away, Danny away from the pain yeah, yeah yeah yeah
Run away Danny away from the pain yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
Run away, run away, Danny run, run away

Damon's got a gun
Damon's got a gun
His whole world's come undone
From swinging hard and having fun...
Swingers running hard from you...
Duh-Knees don't leave..I love you....
She had to get a new job smoking weed by Southwest frowned upon...
She said her back is able. She's dancing on the tables...But Damon never saw her leave..

Run away, Danny away from the pain yeah, yeah yeah yeah
Run away Danny away from the pain yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
Run away, run away, Danny run, run away

Damon's got a gun
Damon's got a gun
Damon's got a gun
Everybody is on the run

Damon's got a gun
Mad-dogging day's begun
Please Duh-Knees, please don't run
If you leave I don't have no one....
Damon's got a gun
Barrel pointed at someone....
Brenda just ain't no fun
Swallow the barrel of the gun!!!!

THE END!


63 posted on 07/15/2002 10:50:53 AM PDT by FresnoDA
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To: Jaded
I couldn't connect to your link.
64 posted on 07/15/2002 10:58:32 AM PDT by Defiant
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To: MizSterious
But by the time Faulkner left the witness stand, many of the jurors had stopped taking notes. They will be the final arbiters of whether Faulkner's testimony was relevant, and whether it made any sense at all.

Towards the end of Faulkner's testimony, there was no need to take notes because the unrefuted testimony of a witness hired by the prosecution stated with little or no reservations that the body could not have been disposed at the site where it was found prior to 2/16 or only a few days prior.

When asked if he knew of any possible explanation for the absence of particular insect activity that should have been present if the body was disposed at a time that could tie DW to the disposal, the answer was an unqualified "NO", and Dusek didn't even bother to recross at that point. In essence, Dusek conceeded the point that DW could not have disposed of the body.

At least some members of the jury must have seen this coming and at that point, there was no reason to additional notes.

What does the prosecution have for evidence at this point? One or two hairs in DW's house or motor home that can be identified as Danielle's, and a blood spot on DW's green jacket that apparently was not subjected to blood splatter evaluation and a very small blood spot in DW's motor home carpet. Could it be that Danielle had a bloody nose at DW's house when selling the GS cookies, dripped blood on the jacket undetected. Then there was the dog that scratched Danielle a day or two before the GS cookie selling trip. Danielle could have either accidentally or intentionally picked at the scab, causing blood to be deposited on the jacket.

Remember that the dry cleaner did not notice blood on the jacket when DW brought it in for cleaning, so why would anyone expect DW to notice. Certainly he would have checked for blood on it if he had worn it during a possible abduction, murder and disposal of Danielle's body. For that matter, one would think that he would have disposed of the jacket, because its absence would likely have not even been noticed. On the other hand, criminals do make mistakes and do stupid things; that's why many of them get caught.

Then there is the speculation that Danielle may have gone into the MH to play, with or without permission. The testimony of a neighbor about another child of the VDs playing in the street leaves the impression that the VDs did not closely supervise their children was likely offered to counteract the VDs testimony that they did watch their children as closely as they claimed.

DW may have killed Danielle, but there is presently so much doubt as to the theory of the prosecution or evidence to support that theory that a reasonable person could not say he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

If DW actually murdered Danielle, I think the evidence could and should have been developed further before charging him and the blame for an incorrect 'not-guilty' would have to be laid squarely at the feet of a prosecutor desperate for re-election, a point Feldman may very effectively use in his closing argument.

65 posted on 07/15/2002 11:13:06 AM PDT by connectthedots
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To: Defiant
I hate it when that happens. I usually check to make sure links work... sorry.

Stealth Ninja Dave

66 posted on 07/15/2002 11:15:42 AM PDT by Jaded
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To: spectre; Politicalmom
All the thanks should go to Politicalmom, who set up the "refuge" in the first place. She did the work, only took a second to send the $$.

It's the one place where I can count on reading the truth--unvarnished by someone's bias. It's the one place where I can count on people expressing opinions without claiming they're facts--and where an opinion can be expressed without some hit and run hotshot flaming someone about it.

Before anyone chimes in saying we all believe the same thing, think again: the polls Politicalmom runs prove that we're all over the place--some think DW is guilty, some don't, some aren't sure, some think one of the partiers did it, some think a stranger did it--and yet we talk about it without anyone condescending, flaming or being nasty.

Politicalmom, my sincerest thanks to you for running a real class act!



67 posted on 07/15/2002 11:20:14 AM PDT by MizSterious
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To: mommya
Thanks, I think. I am capable of "serious debate", however. I posted the following in another forum early in the trial, and it still applies, although the fiber evidence in the SUV, the orange fibers and the doggy DNA were not presented at the time I made the analysis. Those facts make the odds discussed below geometrically greater.

....this is not a Sir Arthur Conan Doyle mystery in which you, the viewing public, get to have an "aha!" moment. This is a case in which the suspect was identified easily enough, and the initial suspicions confirmed through solid investigation and a mountain of evidence that developed from that investigation.

Here's another way to look at it--

Westerfield's guilt can be mathematically established way beyond a reasonable doubt. It's easy, really. Here's how:

Assign a numerical value to the chance that Westerfield, the anal neatnik, left the motorhome outside unlocked, unattended, and with the security system off. To be nice, say it's 1 in 3, even though we all know it's the kind of thing he would do maybe once every 500 visits. Now, what are the odds that Danielle Van Dam escaped, ran across the street unnoticed, and snuck into the motorhome at just the precise moment that it was unlocked, and unsecure. If you're one of the true believers here, like Dood, it's 25 percent, or 1 in 4. I say it's more like 1 in 200, but either one works.

Now, assign a numerical value to the chance that while she was in there, she somehow cut herself and bled. What are the odds of that? Again, I say 1 in 200, but go with Santee Dad's estimate, and use odds that are 1 in 3. Maybe there were a lot of sharp edges in there.

We'll assume that the hair in the motorhome, the fibers and the fingerprint were left behind on this visit, and so it does not increase the chance of Westerdoodie's guilt. We'll further assume, just to be nice, that the jacket was in the motorhome, or got contaminated from the blood dropped in the motorhome on this auspicious occasion.

Just with those facts, and way too generous odds, we're up to a 1 in 36 that there's an innocent explanation, pretty damn likely, and good enough for a conviction in any state in the union, but certainly not enough to sentence a man to death.

But that's not all. Because we have Danielle's hair in Westerfield's dryer lint and on his bedding. Now, we know the little scamp was in the house, but what are the odds she spread her hairs all over, they got on and in several different articles of laundry? Including on the bedspread DW just happened to take to the cleaners? Well, hell, go with 1 in 2.

But the dog, well, I'm sorry, I'm going to have to raise the odds. The chance that the Van Dams tracked that many dog hairs from their cookie visit into the Westerfield house is pretty small, even in Ms. Samantha's Santa Monica/Tom Hayden world. Give it 1 in 8, even though in the real world it's 1 in thousands.

However, there's the problem that the dog hairs don't positively identify the dog. That's simple to resolve. All the defense has to do to get rid of that 1 in 8 is come up with a dog, any dog, whose hair characteristics come close to the Van Dam dog's, and who has been in the house within the past few years. Do that, and the 1 in 8 is gone. Don't do it, and there's only one conclusion to be drawn: There is no such dog, and the only non-innocent explanation is transference, which, as we have examined, is unlikely.

Then, there's the carpet fibers that those darn Van Dams tracked into DW's house when they tried to force him to buy those disgusting Girl Scout cookies. The fibers then got in the laundry. Oh, hell, I'll give you a pass on those. I'm sure the Van Dams tracked those in on their shoes.

We're now up to 1 in 576, or slightly less than a 2/10 of 1 percent chance of innocence under very generous conditions. That's enough for capital punishment under all the official standards, although no one ever assigns a number to it. And, we haven't even gotten into all the lies, the porn, the odd behavior, the disappearing clothing, the cleaning and all the other things that point to Westerfield.

Using real world calculations, I put it more like 1 in 5000, not 1 in 576. But I gave overly high probabilities to prove that even doing so, the odds of there being an innocent explanation for Danielle's blood, the hair, fibers, and other evidence are miniscule.

The case has long been over, and it's incredible that there are so many arguing about so little. In fact, I think there is a far greater chance that Westerfield was framed than that there is an innocent explanation for the blood getting there. And the odds of that are pretty tiny, too.

If the defense can explain away the blood, I'll be happy to consider it. Call me when it happens, and I'm not holding my breath.

68 posted on 07/15/2002 11:26:45 AM PDT by Defiant
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To: Defiant
You picked a perfect screen name to match your attitude.

sw

69 posted on 07/15/2002 11:41:12 AM PDT by spectre
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To: spectre
I picked mine a few weeks before you. Back then, there were other things to be defiant about. What specter do you see on our horizen?
70 posted on 07/15/2002 11:44:30 AM PDT by Defiant
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To: Defiant

FDA Attempt at Lymrick...after this, you will appreciate my song parodies, possibly!!  LOL...


The number's big, it may add up...

That Westie killed, that little pup..

But others see a pattern of abuse..

That means Damon, should get the noose..

His social life, is really strange..

Sleeps with skanky women, doesn't know their names...

His wife is big, and kind of a goof...

His other gal, is sort of aloof...

Thin, old and fat....

He does not care...

Must swing with gals..

Lest folks think him queer....

THE END!!

 


71 posted on 07/15/2002 11:47:34 AM PDT by FresnoDA
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To: MizSterious
Same thing all over CNN also.
72 posted on 07/15/2002 11:54:47 AM PDT by alexandria
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To: spectre
Do people who make up their own numbers, bolstered with more lies (cleaning, disappearing clothing, etc) impress you? They don't impress me...... : )
73 posted on 07/15/2002 11:57:35 AM PDT by Politicalmom
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To: Defiant
Wow, those are some pretty impressive numbers! Pull 'em out of a hat, did you?
74 posted on 07/15/2002 12:05:31 PM PDT by shezza
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To: shezza
FELDMANIZED - Judicially castrated; having reduced a reasonably intelligent witness to a blithering blob with the coherence of Rain Man and the believability of x42; usually accompanied by rhythmic thumping of DA's head on table. See DUSEKED.

ROTFLMAO! I love this one! It describes the exact mental picture in my head the first time I heard it used.

75 posted on 07/15/2002 12:12:59 PM PDT by alexandria
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To: shezza
Shezzam--

The method for determining the odds is described in the post. You want to go through and give your own odds?

You and P-Mom must be liberals. You argue the same way that Ann Coulter describes liberal arguments.

76 posted on 07/15/2002 12:14:18 PM PDT by Defiant
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To: Defiant
It's easy, really. Here's how:

Are you familiar with the phrase "lies, damned lies and statistics"? You can prove anything you want, especially if you set up a few "straw men" in the process. A few examples:

To be nice, say it's 1 in 3, even though we all know it's the kind of thing he would do maybe once every 500 visits.

So, even though people who know him and have travelled with him have testified that he would leave the doors of the motorhome unlocked (security system off, of course) while he had the motorhome near his place, in order to load it up, clean it, etc, you think (or rather, would like us to believe) that he would only do such a thing "maybe once every 500 visits".

By the way, I LOVE that phrase "we all know". It's just like Det. Parga saying (on the stand) "Well, everybody knows that you don't leave your hose out on the lawn!" But I digress.

The chance that the Van Dams tracked that many dog hairs from their cookie visit into the Westerfield house is pretty small

Really? Are you at all aware of how much short-haired dogs shed - especially dogs that are, in their owners' own words, "neglected"? So you've got 3 people from a dog-owning family, 2 of which are kids (who wrestle with dogs far more than an adult would) - and you still think there wouldn't be any transference into DW's house? That the probability "in the real world" would be "in the thousands"? In the "real world", people who own short-haired dogs/cats take their pets with them (unless they brush off their clothing) everywhere they go.

Just to make sure you understand this concept, think of it this way: People don't wear their shoes in their own homes (generally). If they have pets, hairs stick to their socks, a situation made worse by static electricity. If they enter another person's home, and politely remove their shoes, they're going to leave pet hair on the other person's carpet. Once it's in the house, that hair can blow wherever it wants, thanks to forced air heating. This works with fibres as well, except that, in this "real world" case, the fibres will stick to the homeowner's socks, and be transferred into his laundry.

And, we haven't even gotten into all the lies

I don't see how the Van Dam's testimony applies in this situation. Unless you'd like to inform us all about "all the lies" that DW told. I'll wait.

"...odd behavior..."

Subjective. Define "odd behavior". I consider the fact that a huge majority of people would rather let the media do their thinking for them to be "odd behavior".

"...disappearing clothing..."

Which disappearing clothing? Please, go to the trial transcripts and post for us which items of clothing are missing.

Now, here's a 10-point question for you: What is the probability of a drunk, sweaty man entering another person's house, being in the home for approximately one hour (open door discovered at 1:45 am, open door discovered at 3:00 am), and not leaving a trace of DNA, fibre or fingerprints?

Thanks for playing, Lestrade.
77 posted on 07/15/2002 12:20:52 PM PDT by NatureGirl
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To: Defiant
You and P-Mom must be liberals

And we all know this, don't we? Gee, and here I was thinking that it was a "second-hander" tactic to state opinion as fact.
78 posted on 07/15/2002 12:25:12 PM PDT by NatureGirl
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To: NatureGirl
Great post Naturegirl!
79 posted on 07/15/2002 12:26:11 PM PDT by Rheo
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To: Defiant
ROFLOL! You're a hoot!
80 posted on 07/15/2002 12:30:27 PM PDT by shezza
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