Faults found in army's new rifle

ic Wales ^ | 3 July 2002 | staff

[45Auto]

Soldiers in Afghanistan have reported three faults with the army's new SA80-A2 rifles, the Ministry of Defence say.

Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon has told troops he would investigate claims the weapon misfires badly, the same problem suffered by the gun it replaced.

Armed forces minister Adam Ingram told shadow defence secretary Bernard Jenkin that three formal equipment failure reports had been filed from Afghanistan.

He said: "The SA80-A2 is operating in a very difficult environment in Afghanistan with both dusty conditions and extremes of temperature.

"In an operational environment any concerns are treated very seriously and a specialist team on the ground is investigating these reports as a matter of urgency."

The original SA80 was suspended from the Nato Nominated Weapon List in 1997 after soldiers experienced problems such as jamming in extreme weather.

Following a £92 million modification programme, the revised weapon was declared one of the best in the world by the MOD and was introduced earlier than planned for use by troops in Afghanistan.

[eyes_only]

>Nope! There are many guns I own and many more that I wish to own. However, if I >needed to go into combat, I'd want my trusted AK-47 and my M1911A1 as my >sidearm. There is nothing better.

>>My FNFAL is my combat arm.

>>My Garand is my competition arm.

>>My AR-15 is shiny and pretty.

>>My Uzi pisses off antigun people.

>>In the sh*t I would go to my FNFAL and my Glock model 34. (With that Glock I can >>put a new forehead on a man at 75 yards with no real effort).

Soooooo many tools- sooooo little time!

I'd probably want my CAR-15 slung on my right shoulder, (carry more ammo that way) Bulg AK47 on my left, in the sh*t and a Glock 22 (high cap) on my left hip, a  1911 on my right, a couple of MicroTech knives(Damascus HALO, LDD/DA Lightfoot) on my belt, plus a few handfuls of Sovereigns to help bribe my way to freedom.

 

And I hope I don't fall in the river and drown.

 

 

[misanthrope]

Lurker,

I share your opinion of the M1A, it's the finest battle rifle I've ever (or likely will ever) own.

Glass bedded, action slicked, mil bipod mounted, it'll do 2" at 100 yds all day long with milsurp ammo. (but remove the bipod, and adjust 6").

I'll never dispose of my M1A, "they'll" have to take it from me.

If you havn't already, try the Federal Gold Medal Match ammo (168 gr boat tail Sierra Match King). This stuff seems to shoot best in all my .30 cal rifles.

[Shooter 2.5]

Thanks for the information. My "Cartridges of the World" book came out the same year, 1997, that the cartridge came out.
I learn something every day from Freepers.

[Clive]

"One of the quirks of American military history is that historically we have always adopted anomalously accurate firearms for military weapons. The US is the only military that I know of that has routinely adopted firearms that could trivially be converted into match grade weapons in their day. I don't know if it has made a difference militarily, but Americans sure do have a taste for quality firearms."

Canada learned early that a fine competition rifle may not be the best weapon to supply to the infantry.

The saga of the Ross rifle has been passed down from father to son from WWI to the present.

The Ross rifle was a precision hunting rifle, competition quality. Canada supplied its soldiers with a military version before shipping them off to Europe.

The rifle was an accurate weapon when properly maintained. Indeed, even after the regular infantry had abandoned the weapon, snipers continued to use it. However, it was long and heavy and under combat conditions it had a habit of jamming under rapid fire. Soldiers had to actually kick the bolts to unjam the rifle and soldiers were shot with their own weapons while in the act of performing this remarkable procedure.

By the time of Ypres, any Canadian soldier who could lay his hands on a Lee Enfield (usually by confiscating the weapon of a deceased Brit soldier) would discard his Ross in favour of the more reliable Lee Enfield.

When General Alderson expressed a desire to replace the Ross rifle, Sir Sam Hughes, the Minister of Militia and the person who had chosen the weapon, appointed Sir Charles Ross, the developer of the rifle, to make inwuiries. Ross blamed the jams on inferior brit and european ammunition (the ammo was inferior, but the Lee Enfield was able to cope) and of course on mishandling fy the troops.

By the time that the Ross rifle was formally abandonded, fully one-third of the Canadian troops had managed to obtain Lee Enfield rifles by liberating them from Brit casualties.

A fine precision weapon, able to attain great accuracy and win shooting competitions in civilian matches is not what is needed by the infantry. Ruggedness, resistance to jams and ease of clearing jams will trump long range accuracy.

The Canadian snipers kept their Ross rifles, which actually was a superior weapon for their use, but they are specialists.

The lesson of the Ross rifle and a certain affection for the Lee Enfield No 4 has become a part of the Canadian military heritage.

[Clive]

thank you.

I have bookmarked your link.

[misanthrope]

bumpola for the "Gun Culture"

[TC Rider]

I'm sorry, I meant the Glock 35 after all.

LOL, I have to go to the Glock website to keep the numbers straight. The only ones I remember comfortably are the ones I own or lust after.

Your 35 sounds pretty good. That's the kind of performance I'm looking for. My 23 with it's short barrel does pretty good out to about 25 yds for me, then it's iffy. (Of course I bought it for the 7 yards or less targets).

Yesterday I took out about 2" of the bull at 7 yards with my 10 round clip. Today I'm stuck babysitting a server.

I'd rather be back at the range.

[45Auto]

Brunei to get modified SA80 rifles

By Rosli Abidin Yahya

The British army says that its newly modified SA80 is the most reliable rifle in the world, after tests in several countries including Brunei Darussalam that included the firing of three million rounds, claimed the Guardian, a UK daily.

The newspaper claimed that the British Army spent 92 million improving and testing the accident-prone rifle, and will now modify about 200,000 of the rifles for use by the British forces worldwide including Brunei.

In Brunei the British Army comprises mainly the Gurkhas, which are stationed in Seria and Jalan Muara.

British soldiers have complained about the SA80 ever since it was introduced in 1986, particularly during the 1991 Gulf War and after a more recent battle with rebels in Sierra Leone. The complained that the rifle kept jamming.

Unconfirmed army reports also alleged that British troops entering Yugoslavia's Kosovo province in 1999 were hampered by poor equipment, including unreliable rifles.

But the military insisted, after the latest round of tests, that the rifle was now a winner.

"I'm convinced that the SA80 A2 is the best 5.56mm rifle in the world. If there is a better one, I haven't seen it yet," said Major Andrew MacDonald, head of the rifle team's trials.

"I was in Brunei for the tests where I was impressed to the point of boredom," said Flight Lieutenant Ian Caesar.

"Whenever there was a stoppage, which was very rare, people came running to have a look. The reliability of this weapon has been hugely improved."

Courtesy of Borneo Bulletin

[45Auto]

Bushmaster Bullpup

[Lurker]

I pretty much handload all my stuff for my .308s and I do use the Sierrra 168 gr Match King over a moderate load of Reloader 12.

As per the manufacturers instructions, I keep them below 2600 fps at the muzzle. That load also shoots fine from my Enfield.

If you shoot a lot, I highly recommend handloading. It saves us a ton of money.

Regards,

L

[archy]

The items that go on or in the butt are the butt bolt and washer, the oiler, the butt plate and the screws to hold the butt plate to the stock.

And a weighted cleaning pullthrough as well, in lieu of a threaded-section cleaning rod, I believe. A couple of flanelette cleaning patches kept the oiler and other bits from rattling about inside.

-archy-/-

[archy]

The story behind the SA80 as I understand it, is that the UK wanted to issue a domestically produced rifle, mostly to prop up the failing Enfield company. The SA80 is the result. A smarter move would have been to license one of the numerous superior designs out there and have Enfield manufacturer it.

The SA80 is based on the Armalite AR18, which they converted to bullpup, and screwed up in the process. But domestic politics and pride demand that it be used by the troops, even if they despise it.

Except for the elite, like the SAS. They use M16s.

Not entirely. The Royal Marines and the Gurkhas can both certainly be considered among Great Britain's *elite* forces, and though both units have had issues of the M16 family weapons in the past, both are now using the upgraded SA80/L85A1. But it's not easily adapted to the M203 granade launcher, for which the M16 is still used, and likely some Canadian C7 replacements will be provided.

There's been a great deal said about the SA80/L85A1 by those who've never shot one; I found the things to have a very decent trigger, certainly better than that of the L88/AUG or French FAMAS [my own first choice of the modern bullpups and 5,56mm carbines] and about equal to that of a service-grade Garand. On a extended firing session of 3000+ rounds on a range equipped with all the cleaning gear and new, clean magazines one could want, the thing was nicely reliable; that was one of the old, unmodified versions. But the perplexing problem is that often, new rifles just out of the boxes work fine, while after they've had a bit of wear and might be expected to be *worn in* and working even smoother and better, they instead begin to experience repeated failures both in feeding and extraction/ejection cycles.

Perhaps even more interesting would be a close look at the L86A1 Light Support Weapon, which operates from an open breech for better cooling during firing and doesn't seem to be as subject to the receiver warpage that has plagued SA80s that have been fired to the point of overheating.

I suspect that some of the supposed *improvements* were hardly that; and there's been at least one other use for which the things seem to have been doing okay: as a training rifle firing blanks during field training exercises.

Back to the drawing boards and toolrooms, lads....

[Shooter 2.5]

Too bad you guys missed this:
http://www.freerepublic.com/fo cus/news/686624/posts

[tet68]

Look in ShotgunNews , Wholesale Guns and Ammo has them as do
J&G,Century Arms,and SOG(Southern Ohio Gun).
Check out falfiles.com and milsurpshooter.net for more info.
You can be a cruffler too.(C&R license holder)
Heck right now they all also have the Cetme for right at
$300!

[FreedomPoster]

Re: The trooper with the maroon beret.

Rule 2: Never point the muzzle at anything you are not prepared to destroy.

[VadeRetro]

And a weighted cleaning pullthrough as well, in lieu of a threaded-section cleaning rod, I believe.

I'm missing that for mine, but I prefer an ordinary cleaning kit with a rod. The idea of the cleaning-kit-in-a-trapdoor-in-the-stock seems to be that your overburdened footsoldiers don't have to carry a separate cleaning kit that way.

[RISU]

That is an appeal to improper authority This is an interesting phrase. Even if you get "poop" from someone else, it is only "data" to yourself until you run it through the test of your own experience. (Validation) When you are not experienced all you have is the book learning. But once you have tried that "data" and found it to be true then you have "knowledge". Knowledge requires a "knower". "It may have been "knowledge" to the guy who wrote the book, but it's just "data" to the reader until he has tried it and found it valid. There were a bunch of guys who bought the book data on the M16 who paid for that hubris and faith with their lives when the weapon failed in their hands.

As far as "improper authority" goes, for what it is worth, I found that "authority" is a very low order basis for your actions. Your own "Experience" is the best guide.

... the M2 .30 carbine. I doubt very much if your freind has seen "more" unless he has been sent off to the "other side" and returned. What makes me think that is that he is still interested in guns at all. Not a characterisitc of those who have "seen more". In any case, he likes the carbine because its light weight. But it lacks the punch needed to be a "heavy duty inducstrial grade bush cutter."

Here are my rules for surviving the your first thirty days, for whatever value they may be to you: 1. Keep your mouth shut, eyes and ears open for the first 30 days. 2. Pick a guy in the unit who looks to you like he "knows" what to do and copy everything he does exactly for 30 days. 3. When anyone in the unit whose been in country longer than you says do something, just do it. We'll worry about "rank" in CONUS.

Do these three things you will live. Otherwise, you will probably die. The advice isn't "orthodox". It just "works", that's all.

One last word to you personally. If I were going into something "new" I would listen to anyone whose already done it before I would take the word of "proper authiority". The first act of a real leader is "disobedience to authority", and I give you Geo. Washington as an example who basically told the Britich to go F..K themselves.

[RISU]

Try this test. Put a gook behind a bananna tree 50 years away through a forest thicket. Shoot through bush and the tree with both the M16, and then the M14 (Don't do it in reverse order or it will screw up the experiement.)

See which one kills him.

[Shooter 2.5]

"Knowledge requires a "knower". "It may have been "knowledge" to the guy who wrote the book, but it's just "data" to the reader until he has tried it and found it valid."

Equally important is to keep your knowledge and data up to date. I always liked the 1971 Ford Mustangs but I haven't looked at the new 2002's yet. I understand they have changed a few things.

[RISU]

Howdy. Can't argue with you on that one.

I am "way" out of date, and hopefully, I can stay that way now!

Be good. (But failing that, Shooter, at least be "good at it"!)