Posted on 04/18/2002 10:46:10 AM PDT by Rum Tum Tugger
If you find yourself agreeing with this article as you read it, you have no idea what the Catholic Church is all about -- just like the author.
The Church maintained much temporal power through the early Middle Ages, including the power to tax and a system of courts with as much power of life and death as any court in history. As a secular nobility arose in Europe following the collapse of the Roman Empire, clashes occurred between these two networks of temporal power. Those clashes were lessened most effectively by the renunciation, by the holders of benefices and bishoprics, of the privilege of engendering families that could inherit their positions and accumulations. Apparently the secular nobles felt that clerics who had no dynastic aspirations could be trusted better to wield the temporal powers they claimed. Over time, this became uniform Church policy. But as late as the 5th Century, it was noncontroversial for priests to marry and beget.
Christ never said anything about celibacy as a requirement for the priesthood. But then, He never spoke of a priesthood in the first place. It's the way the Church chose to organize itself; its celibacy requirement is a personnel policy, rather than an absolute graven into stone like the Ten Commandments. As an example, there are a handful of married Catholic priests even today. They were ordained Catholic, left the Church for an Anglican or Episcopalian ministry, and were then "recruited back" into the Roman order, and allowed to keep their wives and families. Therefore, even the Holy See does not regard priestly celibacy as a Divine requirement. Whether it's the policy of the Church is, of course, solely for the Holy See to determine.
Freedom, Wealth, and Peace,
Francis W. Porretto
Visit The Palace Of Reason: http://palaceofreason.com
Posted on 4/17/02 5:17 PM Eastern by Dr. Brian Kopp
CATHOLIC WATCHDOG GROUP CALLS ON U.S. CARDINALS TO AFFIRM CHURCH TEACHING WHILE IN ROME
An international group of faithful Roman Catholics has contacted Vatican prelates and all active U.S. cardinals and asked them to publicly affirm the Church's 1961 pronouncement against admitting homosexuals or pedophiles to the priesthood.
Stephen G. Brady, the president of Roman Catholic Faithful, Inc. (RCF) issued a statement on Wednesday that was directed to 8 active U.S. cardinals as well as a number of additional American and Vatican prelates. The American cardinals include Roger Mahony of Los Angeles, Francis George of Chicago, Theodore McCarrick of Washington, D.C., William Keeler of Baltimore, Anthony Bevilacqua of Philadelphia, Edward Egan of New York City, Adam Maida of Detroit, and the currently embattled Bernard Law of Boston. They will be traveling to Rome next week with National Conference of Catholic Bishops president Bishop Wilton Gregory and others at the summons of the Holy Father. They will be participating in closed-door meetings with Vatican representatives to address the scandal and damage the Church in America is undergoing due to an increasing number of sexual abuse cases coming to light. A number of prelates have been accused of protecting abusive priests and moving them to other areas, where they have repeated their predatory acts with new victims. An overwhelming number of offenses have involved homosexual acts.
"As a measure of their sincerity in addressing this horrible crisis inflicting so much damage on the souls of the innocent," Brady charged, "we challenge each and every one of these princes of the Church to sign a statement agreeing they will follow the direction of a letter issued by the Sacred Congregation for Religious in Rome." Brady is asking each prelate to affirm the following declaration: "I, ________ Cardinal ________, hereby agree to follow the direction of the letter issued by the Sacred Congregation for Religious in Rome in 1961, which states: 'Those affected by the perverse inclination to homosexuality or pederasty should be excluded from religious vows and ordination'". The Church directive has never been rescinded and is still officially in force.
"If a cardinal is not willing to sign this document," Brady stated, "then there is no point in his traveling to Rome. Moreover, if he travels to Rome and doesn't sign it, I wish he'd do us a favor and just stay there."
Roman Catholic Faithful, Inc. (RCF) is a not-for-profit lay organization, with many religious members, dedicated to promoting orthodox Catholic teaching and fighting heterodoxy and corruption within the Catholic hierarchy.
ROMAN CATHOLIC FAITHFUL, INC.
P.O. Box 109
Petersburg, IL 62675
Phone 217-632-5920
Fax 217-632-7054
Web www.rcf.org
Press Release
Contact: Stephen G. Brady
Phone: (217) 632-5920
BEST NEWS I'VE HEARD ALL DAY: [Rod Dreher] Michael Rose, author of Goodbye, Good Men, the blockbuster expose of homosexuality and heresy in American seminaries, e-mails to say he just filled an order from a Polish monsignor in the Vatican, who ordered four copies and promised to do his best to get a copy into the Holy Father's hands before the pontiff meets next week with the American cardinals. You go, Monsignor! If John Paul reads only chapter four, "The Gay Subculture," he will meet the cardinals with fire blazing in his eyes. In other good news, Regnery Publishing has bought rights to Goodbye, Good Men, which is now out only in paperback, and will be rushing a hardcover edition into stores next month. Regnery's involvement means this extremely important book will get huge distribution and exposure. Posted 1:50 PM | [Link]
1 posted on 4/17/02 5:17 PM Eastern by Dr. Brian Kopp
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He doesn't. He questions the idea of the papacy as a monarchy, which the Pope was; for centuries he headed a civil state. Did Jesus intend for the Pope to head a state?
Vatican II wrestled with the place of the Pope and came up with the term collegiality, with the Pope as first among equals.
He also attacks Papal infallibility.
Papal infallibility has been exercised three times: the dogmas of the Assumption and Immaculate Conception of Mary were defined infallibly, but had been held by Catholics for nearly 2000 years. So, these definitions were a bit redundant.
The third time it has been used was in 1870, when the dogma of Papal infallibility itself was defined.
Popes themselves are reluctant to invoke it; Paul VI specifically crossed out the word "infallible" in Humanae Vitae, and John Paul II has not formally defined anything infallibly either.
If you find yourself agreeing with this article as you read it, you have no idea what the Catholic Church is all about -- just like the author.
I do find myself agreeing with the author's historical perspective of celibacy because, in fact, it is correct.
Actually, they weren't. They were ordained as Episcopalians or even Lutherans originally, left those denominations, and were welcomed into the Catholic priesthood. There are about 100 of them in the United States.
There are Catholic priests who left the priesthood in the 70's or 80's, married, fathered children (in some cases), and divorced, and are now being accepted back into the priesthood. They are NOT allowed to bring their families, as they are not married validly in the eyes of the Church.
Freedom, Wealth, and Peace,
Francis W. Porretto
Visit The Palace Of Reason: http://palaceofreason.com
To paraphrase Jesus Christ:
"I declare, Simon, that you are the Rock, and upon this Rock I will build my church. And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, and it will last until the end of time."
If that isn't the establishment of an absolute, monarchical form of church "government," then I don't know what it is. In specifically elevating ONE of his closest disciples (and not his "favorite" one in a personal sense) above the other twelve, Jesus established a monarchy, not a senate.
He also attacks Papal infallibility. I'd say that's anti-Catholic.
Was John XXII, fondly referred to as the "whore of Avignon" and whose reputation was so sullied no one would take his papal name for the next 700 years, infallible? Was St. Peter, who denied Christ three times, infallible? Again, this is a doctrine which was promulgated by men 1900 years into the Church's history. The Church has had theological debates over such issues throughout its existence. Just because someone differs with you doesn't make them "anti-Catholic" any more than the debate over the poverty of Christ rendered either of the opposing sides "anti-Catholic."
I suspect you agree with the author though.
So what? That is only an assertion ad hominem and not a valid deconstruction of the arguments presented.
William of Occam would grab you by the ear and tell you to get thee to a Jesuit for some schooling in the trivium.
He doesn't. He questions the idea of the papacy as a monarchy, which the Pope was; for centuries he headed a civil state. Did Jesus intend for the Pope to head a state?
From the early days the Church used the monarchical form for its organization structure. Whether the Pope is a head of state has nothing to do with it. According to Church teachings, Jesus did intend the Pope to be the head of his Church. Given that the normal form of organization structure at the time of Jesus was the monarchy, it's a safe bet Jesus had a monarchy in mind. Also, it's hard to refute that the organization structure of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is a triune monarchy.
I read the author's intent to be an attack on the foundation of the Church by attacking its organizational structure.
Papal infallibility has been exercised three times: the dogmas of the Assumption and Immaculate Conception of Mary were defined infallibly, but had been held by Catholics for nearly 2000 years. So, these definitions were a bit redundant.
I'm not sure how your comments about Papal infallibility are relevant. However, I had the impression that when the concept of Papal infallibility became dogma, it was intended to apply retroactively to past Papal dogmatic proclamations. It has been my understanding, however, that confusion arises because the Church has not specifically declared which past proclamations are infallible.
I do find myself agreeing with the author's historical perspective of celibacy because, in fact, it is correct.
One of the oldest tricks in the book is to throw some facts with which a reader will agree into what is in essence a diatribe.
I don't want to put words into your mouth, but would I be correct in recalling that on other threads, you have supported the end of celibacy?
No. I don't want to end celibacy.
I would prefer if the Western Rite of the Catholic Church adopt the centuries-old practice of the Eastern Rite of the Catholic Church: ordain married men, but no priest may marry after ordination and reserve the episcopacy for celibates.
How would you know what was in Jesus' mind? He never defined the structure of what is now Holy Orders. He allowed the Church to do that. There were no priests among the apostles; in fact, they didn't even call themselves "bishops." And there was constant conflict among the apostles as to who had how much authority. That even involved Peter, though no one challenged him as the "Head." Organizationally, the Church could constitute itself differently, as long as the Pope remained at the spiritual center of the episcopacy, as the first among equals.
I posted this article for Catholics. I wanted to hear from them as to whether this article was as anti-Catholic as it appears to me.
I realized when I posted it though, that good people like you (non-Catholics) would not be able to resist using it as you are using it.
When I said that I suspect that you agree with the author, it was a subtle attempt to refer you to my opening comments in the hope that you would get the hint and step aside.
I certainly did not intend the thread to become a discussion of Catholic beliefs between Catholics and non-Catholics. So, if you would respect my intent, I would like to end our exchange.
Well, if Jesus allowed the Church to define its organizational structure, if the Church chose the monarchical form, and if the Church is guided by Jesus, do you think Jesus would have had some other form in mind?
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