[ken5050]

it won't cost the taxpayers anything, yada, yada, yada, we know that's not the truth. The taxpayers ALWAYS end up holding the bag. The Yankees just spent several hundred million on free agents, and the Mets may be the odds on favorite to win the National League pennant, after their recent aquisitions. So, the citizens of the rest of the country are being asked to subsidize baseball in NYC, and make the likelihood of future subway series even greater.

The good people of Minneapolis and probably 2 or more cities, will be losing their baseball teams, while subsidizing New York's. Indeed, on several occasions, the voters of Minnesota have turned down funding referenda for a new stadium for the Twins, yet now they are going to pay a portion of the cost of TWO new edificies for New York?

My prediction: This will not happen. Guiliani really messed up with this, and it will hurt his legacy and image, which has been awesome since 9/11. Incoming Mayor Bloomberg has NOT agreed to it, and it's a lousy thing for an outgoing mayor to try and bind the new one to a major deal like this. Plus, NYC's Firemen and Policemen , not to mention the teachers, are looking for new contracts with big raises, and to be told they must settle for less, while the city spends a billion to build new playpens for Derek Keter and Mike Piazza, just won't fly. And when the news of this starts to echo around the country, a lot of pols ( Jesse Ventura, are you listening) will start to question the so-far open ended aid bill to NYC...Look, Bush may be popular in NY now, but no way he's gonna carry the state in 2004, and besides, it makes Chuckie Schumer and Yankee "fan" Hillary look stupid, with all their bleats for more aid......

Ain't gonna happen, IMHO, but how do YOU feel??

[abandon]

I agree, it probably won't happen, especially since Mayor-elect Bloomberg kind of poo-pooed the idea. I think Rudy is hoping that if it does go through, his name will be plastered on at least one of the stadiums.

[NOLBRLS]

It seems that a lot of average people have become millionaires and NYC is riding high as a result of this tragedy. The final impact will be on my rural wallet.

[Rodney King]

Unfortunetly, I think that it will happen. The voters of NYC are by far the stupidest in the nation.

[mysterio]

No tax dollars for sporting arenas. The taxes get enacted, and then they are never retracted. You still pay for the stadium 20 years later. By then, the state has already sold the naming rights to some corporation. So you have Cingular stadium, paid for by the people of state X.

[NativeNewYorker]

Won't happen.

The terms of the deals aren't awful, but it is very hard to imagine it going through in this environment.

The Yankees are literally rolling in money, with Steinbrenner's adept creation of a local sports empire including the Yankees, Nets and Devils, and their inevitable morphing into a dedicated cable channel. There is no rationale for the city helping that club at all.

As for the Mets, their God-awful ballpark is usable, if unpleasant.

[wheezer]

It should happen, the citizens of NYC who prefer sporting events to operas, ballets and museums deserves some NY-supplied subsity for their low-brow recreational interests.

I highly doubt it will happen now that Bloomy is in charge.

[Neets]

I saw this earlier this morning...and I'm with you babe,,,ain't gonna happen

[Phantom Lord]

"If they can afford to pay 1 player over $100,000,000 they can afford to build their own stadiums." --Gov. Jesse Ventura

[isthisnickcool]

Professional "sports" in America suck. A ripoff to the taxpayers because most don't attend the games or even watch them on TV. These stadiums are nothing more than welfare for rich guys and subsidies for TV and newspapers to provide them with free content.

And I can't think of any players that's admirable. And calling some of them "heros" as it's done so often is laughable. Seems like a lot of gangster types and druggies. Especially in basketball. The only sports figure I can see that has anything admirable about him is Lance Armstrong. And all he needs is a bike.

[SheLion]

Although the link isn't there anymore, I saved the article. I am not sure what is going on with Pataki, but there are quite a lot of twists and turns to him lately:

Pataki considers cigarette tax hike

By MARC HUMBERT Associated Press Writer December 4, 2001, 2:43 PM EST

ALBANY, N.Y. -- Gov. George Pataki, facing a multibillion dollar revenue shortfall related to the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, is considering raising the state's already highest-in-the-nation cigarette tax by up to 39-cents per pack, sources said Tuesday.

The sources, familiar with the deliberations of Pataki's budget advisers and speaking only on condition of anonymity, said the cigarette tax increase was one proposal under consideration as the governor seeks to deal with a potential $9 billion revenue shortfall.

Pataki, during an appearance in nearby Troy with state Senate Majority Leader Joseph Bruno, refused to rule out such an increase.

"I'm not going to comment on any specific element of the budget because we haven't put it together yet," he said. "We're doing our analysis and we'll being making decisions over the course of the next few weeks."

But Pataki also warned, "It's going to be a very difficult year coming up and we're all going to have to look to see how we can tighten our belts, reduce costs and operate more efficiently."

Bruno, a fellow Republican who generally opposes tax increases, said he would wait to see the governor's budget proposal for next year before commenting.

Such a cigarette tax increase, first reported Tuesday by the Buffalo News, would raise New York's per pack tax to $1.50.

Currently, New York's $1.11 per pack state tax is the highest in the nation, although state of Washington voters last month approved a tax increase to $1.42 per pack, effective in January.

There has also been some talk among state leaders about delaying already scheduled tax cuts due to take effect next year, but Pataki and legislative leaders haven't yet come up with specifics.

State Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, a Democrat who perhaps fears voter backlash in an election year, has said he is willing to consider tax increases or delays in tax cuts--if they are proposed by Pataki.

Pataki has said the state's revenue shortfall, which he blames in large part on the economic disruption caused by the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center, could be up to $3 billion for the state fiscal year that ends March 31. For the next fiscal year, the shortfall could be as much as $6 billion, Pataki has warned. The state's current budget is more than $83 billion.

The governor had indicated earlier that because of the serious fiscal problems, he had hoped to give the state Legislature his budget proposal for fiscal 2002-03 by the middle of this month, about one month before it is legally due. That, according to Pataki, would give the Legislature extra time to work on the spending plan.

But the governor said Tuesday he wasn't certain how soon he would be able to deliver his budget proposal, noting that key sales and estimated income tax payments are due this month and need to be analyzed.

"We want to do it as quickly as we can with the maximum amount of information we believe is necessary," he said.

New York has chronically late budgets. The budgets, for the fiscal year that starts April 1, have been late for 17 straight years.

In 1999, Pataki convinced the Legislature to raise the state cigarette tax by 55-cents per pack, effective March 1 of last year. At the time, the increase was expected to raise an extra $340 million annually.

Supporters of the move said it would reduce smoking while opponents said it would hurt convenience stores and drive customers to Indian reservations or to other states where they could obtain cheaper cigarettes.

Also Tuesday, mayors from across the state held a news conference in Albany to caution state leaders that cities couldn't afford to have the state's fiscal problems shifted onto their shoulders. And, the state School Boards Association warned that with major increases in state aid unlikely school districts needed changes in state law to make it easier for them to cut costs.

Copyright © 2001, The Associated Press

[Alberta's Child]

My guess is that it will never happen. The problem for the Yankees and Mets is that they have zero leverage here -- every other jurisdiction in the region that might be used as a "competing location" for a new stadium (New Jersey, Yonkers, Long Island, etc.) is flat broke and therefore cannot offer even a nickel to build a stadium for either team. New Jersey can't even figure out how to keep two of its own teams (the Devils and Nets), let alone attract another one.

It is also my hope that the state of Minnesota loses all of its professional sports teams and sets an example for the entire nation. Once the rest of the country sees how much better off a place is without them, the entire industry of professional sports will collapse.

[PhiKapMom]

If NYC has an extra billion they can use to finance these stadiums, then why are they asking the rest of us taxpayers to bail them out including those in Upstate NY? I really object to financing anything for Steinbrenner period after all the money he gives his players! Tell Rudy and NY Yankess and Mets to take a hike!

And then we have the two moron Senators from NY wanting even more money for NYC. Enough is enough. BTW did NYC ever pay back the money they were given as a bailout when they were going bankrupt? They have been a drain on Upstate NY for many years!

[Go Gordon]

So, the citizens of the rest of the country are being asked to subsidize baseball in NYC, and make the likelihood of future subway series even greater.

You obviously have not thought about all the tax revenues generated from these teams. Whenever a new stadium is built, the city it is built in almost NEVER loses money. The net impact on taxpayers is either a wash or a net gain.

Also, I don't believe any federal money is going towards the stadium projects. Its a combination of state/city/team money. If you are trying to say that the WTC federal disaster relief money is somehow going to be diverted to the stadiums - what is the basis for that accusation? Your opinion?

Let's say instead of having the Yankees move to NJ, they get a new stadium and stay in NY City. Assuming the Yanks new stadium will be 1/2 the current projected cost of $800 million. Over a 20 year period thats $20 million, plus interest, per year (roughly speaking).

The upcoming payroll for the Yanks is gonna be $150 million. What is the city wage and state income tax burden? Not being a New Yorker, for these millionaire players I'll guess 5% city and another 7% for state. Thats 12% of $150 million, or $18 million per year. When you add the taxes collected for wages of front office personnel, wages of construction workers, wages and sales tax from vendors, taxes on tickets, restaurantes, hotel rooms, airline travel, memorabilia, parking receipts etc., etc., etc., Well, you get the picture.

[Silly]

You get a WFTD Honorable Mention for the use of both "stadia" and "referenda" in the same post.

(Note to Rika and Annie: Perhaps next week our class can add Latin Plurals to the curricula, thereby exercising our collective crania.)

Still being,

[Ryeoc]

hey........it never hurts to see if we can get away with it.

we been getting screwed by both parties for so long in NYC that its paybacks time . For decades we've paid out about twice in Federal taxes in terms of what we get back .

NYC could use a little pork the rest of you guys been getting for years .

[SamAdams76]

I'm sick of taxpayer money being used to finance stadiums while owners of these teams shell out mega-millions to their players and continue to jack up ticket prices so that only corporations can afford the good seats that are then doled out to clients. Actually I have no problem with what professional sports teams pay their players and how much they charge for seats, provided that they don't hit the taxpayers up for money to build the stadiums.

It's time that professional sports got taken off of public-assistance.

As for Guiliani, he also made a stupid statement yesterday, attacking Boston and San Diego as being "lesser" cities than New York. What was the purpose of that?

[Texbob]

Witch Hillary has not been able to get into New York tax money for her personal use, but, she seems to think Federal tax money belongs to her. What can you expect from a Land Scam artist that took peoples retirement money for her personal use.

[Clemenza]

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! I am a diehard Mets fan and LOVE the current Shea. I don't give a damn who thinks otherwise.

BTW: The current Yankee Stadium is a depressing dump, but let's keep it for the history.

[LN2Campy]

This moronic stadium idea will hopefully go nowhere. The state and city are BOTH broke and Pataki and Giuliani are both hanging around DC like a couple of crack addicts looking for a handout.

Hey Rudy -- why don't you get yourself a SQUEEGEE if you're gonna beg for money for your stadium addiction?? The least you could do is clean a few windshields. Overblown windbag makes a few speeches and shows up at a bunch of funerals and everyone calls him a hero. He's a citrullo, a real sfacim'.

Only a few more days, and hopefully he'll disappear into oblivion with his little shackjob (if he can ever get a boner again, that is).

[BluesDuke]

The good people of Minneapolis and probably 2 or more cities, will be losing their baseball teams, while subsidizing New York's. Indeed, on several occasions, the voters of Minnesota have turned down funding referenda for a new stadium for the Twins, yet now they are going to pay a portion of the cost of TWO new edificies for New York?

I don't like this idea any more than the next one, and I have been a Mets fan since the day they were born (my first major league game, at age seven, was to see the Mets play at the ancient Polo Grounds, where they played while waiting for Shea Stadium to be built), and would love to see them in a new ballpark otherwise. (For all the alleged parking problems at Yankee Stadium, I haven't noticed any big dents in attendance and the park is still a hell of a place to see and play baseball in.) And anyone who thinks teams cannot build their own ballparks without "public funding" or "public financing," please look west and gaze upon PacBell Park, which was built with no public funding or financing. It can be done. Not to mention, my other baseball passion (the Boston Red Sox) are talking of renovating Fenway Park and not as yet mentioning OPM to do it (the Red Sox, not Boston or Massachussetts, own the ballpark), or, if it absolutely comes to it, building a new park themselves, thus far.

But may we please remember, too, that, before the good people of Minnesota got religion and turned down funding referenda twice, it was the good people of Minnesota who acquiesced in the first place to the abomination known as the Metrodome, when a Twins owner (Calvin Griffith) with a million dollar heart (whatever his flaws, and they were many, he really did love baseball) and a brain running a deficit, let a very good, very serviceable, and very much loved ballpark (old Metropolitan Stadium) go to pot in order to get something new that would be dirt cheap to build and run and not have to pay for it in the first place? (Griffith was once quoted as saying of the Metrodome, "Get 'em in, show 'em a game, and get 'em out.") And that, now, Gov. Jesse (The Body In The Feather Boa) Ventura, who formerly opposed "public funding" for a new Minnesota ballpark, is now on record as saying he would consider "public financing"?

And let us please cease this nonsense about "the good people" of two other cities maybe losing baseball teams in which those good people didn't really have that much interest to begin with. We're not talking about something like the Brooklyn Dodgers, whose owner had the most profitable franchise in baseball but had his own reasons for letting Ebbets Field become a dump (and people wondered why Dodger attendance was dipping a bit in the 1950s even while they were winning all those pennants and, finally, that memorable 1955 World Series), namely: he wanted a new and bigger ballpark and he wanted it built and handed to him on a silver platter. (Robert Moses may have been a scamp mountebank when he was the de facto emperor of the Empire State, but he was perfectly within his proper purview when Walter O'Malley, in essence, told New York, "You build a ballpark and give it to me," and Moses and New York told him, "F@ck you." Though, to be fair, Moses had plans for building a ballpark in Queens, though O'Malley snorted back that that would mean they wouldn't be the Brooklyn Dodgers anymore.) This is part of the net result of baseball owners' chickens beginning to come home to roost.

Reality check, folks: Florida was never a viable regular-season major league baseball market. (Neither, for those pondering the locale as a viable new home for one of the teetering teams, is Las Vegas - they've barely the market to support the minor-league 51ers, which they do support and vibrantly, but that is all she wrote for the Vegas baseball market.) The owners expanded to Florida (and other places) in the 1990s against all sense and sensibility a) because they were looking for a way to pay the collusion damages with OPM, and b) they had their eye strictly on the big fat expansion entry fees they could draw in to achieve objective a), without troubling themselves to look seriously into whether full-season markets for baseball were truly viable. Baseball's baronage is learning the hard way what empires ancient (Rome comes to mind) and modern (the late, unlamented Soviet Union) learned the harder way: too much expansion grows you to within a couple of blocks of the cemetery where a grave with your name on it is being prepared unless you watch where you're going.

I agree with those who say new ballparks should not be built by taxpayers, and I'm one of Camden Yards's biggest fans (I had the pleasure of watching my Red Sox play the Orioles at Camden in 1998, after the All-Star break; the Orioles won and began a kind of tear through that August) - I've never seen a more beauteous ballpark in my life except for Wrigley Field (I've never yet, alas, had the pleasure of sitting in Fenway) and old Tiger Stadium. Meanwhile, there is a billionaire from the South (Donald Watkins) who is itching to get into baseball and has the resources to run a team and build a nice ballpark - you'd think Carl Polehead would show some brains and sell this guy the Twins and let him build a new park and send the Metrodome where it belongs: the scrap heap. (I confess: I'd have been thrilled if it had been me invited to push the plunger that sent a certain Seattle abomination to Kingdome Come...)