Posted on 12/21/2001 11:34:36 AM PST by onedoug
"You got me plum-hypnotized," Elmer Gantry says to Sister Sharon Falconer in that film/novel.
Is that the case with me over Joyce Meyer?
She seems pretty good at down-home preachin'. And while not a classic beauty, she yet ministers out a fair amount sex appeal, along with the word.
(I think, ultimately, it's those Texas/Missouri eyes.)
I post this to philosophy since, as I know she has a fair amount of, at least internet detractors, it yet seems that her ability to project the Word, is as anchored in the integrity of faith as any other TV preacher I can recall.
...Except perhaps the late Bishop Fulton J Sheen.
In short though, Meyer lately fascinates me, and I'm curious what other Freepers may think. Particularly Evangelicals!
Thanks, and Merry Christmas to All!
yep.
STATEMENT DM472
Joyce Meyer
Joyce Meyer is a popular Pentecostal preacher living outside of St. Louis, MO, who has been in fulltime ministry since 1980.1 She is a best-selling author in the Christian market,2 and her books cover everything from America’s Christian heritage to weight-loss.3 But she is perhaps best known from her radio and television program, Life in the Word, both of which are broadcast nationally and internationally.4
Meyer shares the platform from time to time with Word of Faith teachers like, for example, Kenneth Copeland, Jesse Duplantis, Benny Hinn, and T.D. Jakes.5 CRI is critical of and concerned with some of her practices and teachings.
In her 1991 booklet, The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make, she teaches a hallmark doctrine of Faith theology, namely, that Christ had to suffer in hell to atone for our sins and be born again:
During that time He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go (legally) because of our sin….He paid the price there.…no plan was too extreme…Jesus paid on the cross and in hell….God rose up from His throne and said to demon powers tormenting the sinless Son of God, “Let Him go.” Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus….He was resurrected from the dead ¾ the first born-again man.6
Her assertions are not unlike those of leading Word of Faith proponent Kenneth Copeland, who also believes Christ’s death on the cross was not sufficient to atone for our sins, and that His work of redemption was completed by suffering in hell and being born again. According to Copeland,
When Jesus cried, “It is finished!” He was not speaking of the plan of redemption. There were still three days and nights to go through before He went to the throne….Jesus’ death on the cross was only the beginning of the complete work of redemption.7
[The] word of the living God went down into the pit of destruction and charged the spirit of Jesus with resurrection power! Suddenly His twisted, death-wracked spirit began to fill out and come back to life. He began to look like something the devil had never seen before. He was literally being reborn before the devil’s very eyes. He began to flex His spiritual muscles….Jesus was born again ¾ the first-born from the dead.8
According to a recently published interview with free-lance writer Ken Walker, however, Meyer contradictorily denies ever believing or teaching that Christ was born again in hell.9
Moreover, in her 1991 booklet, Meyer asserts that salvation is impossible without believing Jesus suffered in hell as the believer’s substitute. Meyer writes, “There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth I am presenting. You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell.”10
While historic Christianity has debated the issue of whether or not Jesus actually descended into hell (e.g., to proclaim the gospel, declare victory, etc. [1 Peter 3:18-19), no orthodox believer ever held to the belief that Christ suffered and atoned for our sins in hell, rather than on the cross.
Yet, Word of Faith teachers, including Joyce Meyer, teach the necessity of Jesus having to pay for our sins in hell, under the torment of Satan and his angels ¾ a teaching both unsubstantiated by and contrary to Scripture. The entirety of Christ’s atoning work (i.e., His suffering and death in our place) occurred on the cross (e.g., 1 Peter 2:24), ending with His proclamation, “It is finished” (John 19:30). The Christ of Faith theology literally had to become sin, taking on the nature of Satan while in hell, thereby needing to be born again in hell before His resurrection could occur.
OTHER QUESTIONABLE TEACHINGS
Meyer also advocates peculiar and unbiblical manifestations at church gatherings, and attributes them to the power of God.
She proclaims, you gotta come on out in the deep….Oh, I think that word’s anointed right now. Deeeep!!! Mmmmmm! One lady was in a conference recently in St. Louis, and she said “I am telling you, every time you said the word “deep” the fire of God hit me in the pit of my guts.” The lady, she kept falling out of her chair and being on the floor, you know? And she said later, “every time you said ‘deeeeep’ it was like I just couldn’t stay in my chair!”11
For a refutation of this and other unbiblical phenomena (e.g., being “slain in the Spirit”), we recommend Hank Hanegraaff’s book, Counterfeit Revival (B393/$20.00).
Although there is no biblical precedent, she makes the assertion that angels tell her what to preach:
Now spirits don’t have bodies, so we can’t see them. Okay? There probably is, I believe there is, and I certainly hope there is several angels up here this morning that are preaching with me. I believe that right before I speak some anointed statement to you, that one of them bends over and says in my ear what I’m supposed to say to you.12
She goes on to promote the superstitious belief that certain kinds of jewelry attract evil spirits:
There are many different signs and emblems that people wear as jewelry that are straight from the devil, and they absolutely do not know it, and I’m quite sure there are going to be people here today that probably even have some of these things in your possession. You may even be wearing one. And what they do is they draw evil spirits.13
In lieu of the biblical admonition to test everything by the objective Word of God (1 Thess. 5:21; 2 Tim. 3:16), Meyer further asserts that God would never allow her to fall into error.
Turning instead to her subjective feelings she says, I am going to tell you something right now. I no more believe that my God is going to let me stand around and believe a lie than I believe that I am going to turn green in the next two minutes. God is my source and He loves me and I am after God with my whole heart. And if I am accidentally, or any other way, getting into error, I am going to have a bell go off on the inside of me that is going to be so loud that not only am I going to hear it, but so is everybody else.14
Despite what Meyer’s feelings tell her, Scripture says otherwise. The apostle Peter is a constant reminder of our proclivity for committing error, and demonstrated, for example, by Christ’s rebuking of Peter for attempting to deter Him from His mission (Matt. 16:22-23; Mark 8:31-33), and later by being publicly rebuked by the apostle Paul for yielding to the pressure of the Judaizers (Gal. 2:11-21). Were it not possible for Meyer to fall into deception and error, Scripture’s repeated warnings (e.g., Matt. 24:4-5; Acts 20:28-31; Gal. 1:6-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-3; 2 Tim. 4:3-4; 2 Peter 2:1-3) would be meaningless.
Also problematic are some of Meyer’s beliefs regarding spiritual warfare. According to her, for instance, generational spirits supposedly torment families for generations with specific sins, and she even believes that a demon of lust torments her family. On one occasion she says,
I told you that there was a spirit of incest in my family bloodline….And the thing that I want you to understand today is when there’s a spirit like that in a bloodline, until some person believes on Jesus and takes the blood of Jesus and draws it across that natural bloodline, that devastation goes on for generations and generations….Well see, my father’s grandfather had problems and so his father had problems and so my dad had problems and so I had problems and so if I wouldn’t have stood and believed Jesus, my kids would have had problems and their kids would have had problems and so on and so on.15
Scripture, however, does not support the existence of a demon or spirit of lust, nor any demon of a particular sin. It is true that certain sins (e.g., alcoholism) are perpetuated and can affect families for generations (see Exod. 20:5; Num. 14:18), but these are the consequences of sin ¾ not generational spirits. James’ epistle is clear that we sin because of our own evil desires (v. 1:14). Demons cannot force us to sin; however, they can influence our behavior through temptation (e.g., Gen. 3:1-6). Nonetheless, we are ultimately held accountable for our actions (e.g., Ezek. 18:4, 20). If this were not so, we would have license to exclaim, “the Devil made me do it!”
Along similar lines, she believes that there are “mind-binding” spirits who keep multitudes of believers in a perpetual state of unbelief.16 Through deliverance, however, the attacks of mind-binding spirits will disappear. In her case, “when the spirits left, the ability to believe came rushing back.”17
Meyer overemphasizes and distorts the parameters in which God permits Satan and his angels to work, by attributing practically every negative experience to demonic activity. There is even a demon of accidents. For example, she recounts experiencing a close call while pulling into and out of a fast food restaurant parking lot. She shouts, “‘I rebuke the spirit of accidents, in the name of Jesus!’”18
Her false view of demonic activity propagates a paranoid and superstitious mindset, while obscuring the work of Christ, human accountability, and biblical views of spiritual warfare.
Because of Joyce Meyer’s adherence to a major tenet of Word of Faith theology and her subjective and unbiblical teachings concerning spiritual warfare, CRI cannot recommend her ministry.
CRI will continue to monitor Mrs. Meyer’s practice and teaching. We will periodically update this statement as necessary.
In regards to Hanengraaff, have you ever noticed that he has nothing good to say about anyone??
Heretic hunters. Reminds me of a lady on our street when I was a teenager. She would peek through her blinds to watch all the kids come home from their dates on Friday night... then call their parents on Saturday morning to report the time they came home, who they were with... if they kissed or not, etc. Her own kids were the worst....but of course...she was blind to that.
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but TRY the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that JESUS CHRIST IS COME IN THE FLESH is of God:
And every spirit that confesseth not that JESUS CHRIST IS COME IN THE FLESH is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even NOW already is it in the world.
Not so strange. The scriptures say study to show thyself approved, and, yes, one must refer to the Word of God always. Paul says the Scripture is "profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness . . ." (II Tim. 3:16). If Scripture is to be used for teaching, someone's got to teach. That someone may be the Holy Spirit, but Paul doesn't limit the teacher to the Holy Spirit. There are many whom God has blessed with an understanding of His Word and from whom we may also learn: C.S. Lewis, Spurgeon, and Watchman Nee, for example. Then there's people who have access to an understanding that many could never acquire on their own. I think of Zola Levitt, a born again Jew, who, because of his Jewish background, has an understanding of the Hebrew text and culture that would take my a lifetime to ever understand by myself.
There is nothing wrong, especially on threads such as this, that we quote individuals whom we respect and believe has a sound understanding of the Bible, take those words away with us and then search and study, while alone, and ask the Holy Spirit to speak to us concerning what we have read. Otherwise, my opinion, while it may be in my mind the "right" opinion because I believe the "Holy Spirit convicted me" that it's true, may be no better than someone's contrary opinion, who also believes that the "Holy Spirit convicted them" of the contrary opinion. Sometimes, one's conviction that the Holy Spirit spoke to them may simply be their own spirit telling them so.
May God bless the discussion of His word this year!
I think you made an important point..that the word of God and the Word of God are not the same thing. Jesus is the Word made flesh
The word as used in the Psalm is the law.That Psalm say God has magnified His word ..not that we are to magnify the written word above His Holy Name. See how often in scripture there is reference to "my names sake". In the days of the OT a name stood for something it was not a trendy expression of the times. Each of the names of God express something of his character.
Isaiah 48
10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
I am not "judging anyones heart..but proverbs say "Iron sharpen Iron".Sometime a discussion like this makes everyone consider God or His word in a new way. This is an "in family discussion"
You really didn't answer my question..If God has to answer a prayer of faith to confirm His presence and love who is in charge? God or his creation? Who is really God in this situation?
Scripture says we are to wait on the Lord, and only move forward when he tells us to.That is not a lack of "faith " it is obedience to Him and His will. I need to check if the "desire in my heart" is God's or mine. Scripture says the heart is deceitful above all things.
Sometimes God says no because what we ask is not His will or plan. The danger in only believe affirmative answers are "signs" is that we can miss God or fail to glorify Him for His plans
Jeremiah 29:11 "For I know the plans that I have for you,' declares the LORD, "plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope.
Jeremiah is called the weeping prophet..God knew the plans..and God used the man and gave him a name that we would still speak today. But I doubt that Jeremiah felt that God was answering all his prayers at the time. sometimes we only see Gods will in retrospect!
While I am at it, since I must lay off the apostate teachings of Word Faith churches, who am I to criticize the Moslems. They love jesus according to most moslems so who am I to say?
These groups have just chosen a path that is different from mine.</sarcasm off>
I will not criticize people directly who want to be involved with this theology however, if someone tries to bring it into my house I will stand up to it. I won't call you names or say "heretic" or whatever because it works for you, but in my case why take a chance. However, my personal opinion is still mine as well as when it enters my church.
Although baptized a Southern Baptist in Texas, I now belong to another evangelical church (Christian & Missionary Alliance in ohio) and several of us persuaded the Elders to remove all Joyce Meyer material from the Women's ministry. Mainly because this is a mid-week ministry for all women and many Catholics and Orthodox people attend the women's studies and to present materials not in line with the Creed's was not a good example. Also there is one pastor who is always bringing this stuff into the church and his wife is always bugging us about why we aren't sending our kids the local Word-Faith "Christian" school. (Word of Life - Warren, Ohio).
We also successfully got the elders to remove Neil Andersen materials. The people who use the "hertic hunter" defense simply say that any church that is not like theirs is attacked. I enjoy the following people from extremely different churches. Chuck Colson, RC Sproul, Ravi Zacharias, Max Lucado, Lee Strobel, James White, Chuck Swindoll. Some of these are wonderful teachers with varying opinions on secondary matters. But to a man they do not stray from "essential doctrine" that matters. Two others (greg laurie, and Charles Stanley) even appear on TBN.
In light of that observation, have you seen my post yesterday wherein I quoted an individual such as you mention above? If not, and if you're interested, you may click HERE and read it. Be sure and notice what one person had to say about it in his reply #43 if you do decide to go to the thread. You may find it interesting in light of this thread. I think there are less than 50 replies on that thread so far.
"My name's sake" as you have quoted appears in only 18 verses in the Bible with the quote "name's sake" appearing in only 30. In the OT the Hebrew "shem" is the word name is translated from meaning reputation which in no way refers to the literal ( proper )name of God. Whereas the Greek word "onoma" used in the NT does refer to the proper name of Jesus.
It would be extremely reasonable for God to magnify his LAW above that of His REPUTATION. Do you understand why God says that His people are destroyed for lack of knowledge?
You have quoted 2 verses that indicate that God maginifies His word..and yet you dismiss 18 -30 verses where he speaks of His name.
It is rather like the Mega Charasmatic Church I attended for years where the gifts were more sought and more recognized that the one that gives them. The gifts were used to as a "proof" of a believer spirituality rather than a expression of the God that gave them..
That quote was revelant..we have to be careful to remember the power belongs to the one that speaks the word..not in the word itself
57:15 For thus saith 559-1 the high 7311-6 and lofty 5375-12 One that inhabiteth 7931-6 eternity, 5703 whose name 8034 [is] Holy; 6918 I dwell 7931-4 in the high 4791 and holy 6918 [place], with him also [that is] of a contrite 1793 and humble 8217 spirit, 7307 to revive 2421-53 the spirit 7307 of the humble, 8217 and to revive 2421-53 the heart 3820 of the contrite ones. 1792-12
Strongs says Shem..My Hebrew/English concordance says Sem .I would go with the Hebrew concordance first (which by the ways has pages and pages of Sem...not a handful)
That is a quotable quote. And I think it has been reversed in many Christian circles. People seek what's on the Master's table rather than the Master. There seems to be a notion that there is somekind of magic in words. cheers
I agree with that statement. Sometimes God's answers are a resounding NO! However, provision is His will and IS what He has ALREADY provided for us. We must BY FAITH accept that He has already done so ( as He has said He has ).
Phillipians tells us that He will supply ALL of our NEEDS according to His riches in Glory. Lainy was pointing out that He had supplied ALL of her NEEDS not her wants or desires. Had she asked, believing ( FAITH ), and Had He NOT answered her prayers in the affirmative His word would have been a lie.
Psalms 37:4 tells us that if we delight ( 'anag meaning to be soft towards )in the Lord He will give us the desires ( mish'ala meaning the petitions )of our heart. 37:5 further tells us to "Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring [it] to pass". We must commit our way unto His and TRUST that He will do what He has said ) and He will, not may, but will bring it to pass. Mind you, not the desires of our flesh but our hearts. There is a difference. I may desire a million dollars but God may know that I would waste it or that it would become my idol. However, if I desired in my heart to further His ministries and to use it to glorify His kingdom ( and I mean truly in my heart desired it for this purpose ) He would be faithful to supply it to me. But the one thing people overlook is the part about committing to our way unto Him. We must act for Him to react. Only God knows my true intent and if it IS according to His will.
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