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WHY DIVORCE IS SO PREVALENT: The #1 Answer To Society's #1 Problem
Toogood Reports ^ | Uncertain | Unknown

Posted on 12/14/2001 3:21:12 PM PST by Dr. Octagon

WASHINGTON, D.C — One of the messiest areas of the law is divorce and child custody cases.

"Legal Notebook" guest, Stephen Baskerville, says that fathers are more often than not treated no better than criminals. Baskerville is a professor of political science at Howard University in Washington DC, and a spokesman for Men, Fathers and Children International.

Host Tom Jipping said to Baskerville, "In some of your writing, I´ve seen a contrast between fatherhood and fathers, particularly in terms of things that the government does. We see a lot of public relations talk about supporting fatherhood, and then, of course, you do a lot of writing as to the way fathers are treated. Distinguish fatherhood versus fathers."

Baskerville said, "It´s an important distinction. Fatherhood has become a buzzword for the government. Increasingly there is awareness of the importance of fathers -- I think it´s reaching general knowledge that fathers are important to children, that many social pathologies – most social pathologies today – result from fatherless homes, fatherless children. And the fathers are very important not only for the upbringing of their children, but for our social order as well."

Jipping said, "To me, some of the most interesting newer work in that area, not just kind of divorce generally, or broken homes sort of generally, but specifically fatherless homes -- that to me is some of the most interesting social science research that´s been done -- and not just by what you might consider conservative activists or something. There are lots of folks at your prestigious universities that are coming to the same conclusion."

Baskerville noted, "That´s right. What´s not being realized, though, is what the cause of this problem is. The assumption that is often unstated is that the fathers have abandoned or deserted their children. This is almost never the case. There´s no solid evidence whatever that large numbers of fathers in this country are simply abandoning their children. There is very solid evidence that fathers are being thrown out of the family systematically by family court, primarily."

Jipping asked, "Do fatherless homes also result from marriages not taking place – is the family simply not forming, while the mothers have the kids and the kids just stay with the mom?

Baskerville answered, "That´s true. And those cases are much more difficult to document when there´s never been a marriage in the first place. But even in those cases, most of those fathers have court orders either regulating when they can see their children, or ordering them to stay away from their children altogether."

Jipping asked, "Is there specific research on what portion of the broken homes, or the fatherless homes, result from these different causes, whether it´s [that] simply no family forms in the first place, fathers abandon their children, or the category we´re talking about here, which is intervention by family courts and fathers being ordered out of the home."

Baskerville stated, "Well, if there´s a marriage, then there is documentation -- we know who files for the divorce. And in most cases, when children are involved, it´s almost always the mother, two-thirds to three-quarters of the time. So in those cases, we have solid documentation that fathers very seldom voluntarily divorce when their children are involved. For the non-married cases, it is difficult to document. But there´s no reason to assume these fathers love their children any less. If you talk to those fathers many of them will tell you -- almost all of them will tell you -- that they desperately want to be with their children and to be active parents, and they are forcibly kept away."

Jipping mentioned an article he read in the Washington Times, on September 19, of an author, Judith Wallerstein, PhD who has been studying the effects of divorce, and has a new book out, The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, a 25 year study, documenting what divorce does to family and children.

Baskerville said, "I think we´ve been denying this for many years now, that divorce is, in fact, harmful for children. I don´t think there´s any question. In many ways, divorce is kind of a conspiracy of grown-ups against children. And this is especially the case when it´s only one of the parents who want the divorce."

Jipping asked Baskerville if he agrees with the author of the book that at the time of the divorce itself, it´s really about problems and the effects that that has on the mothers and the fathers. But, the effects on the children are much, much more long-term and occur decades later.

Baskerville agreed, "Absolutely. For a child, the most terrifying thing is to lose a parent; the fear of losing a parent is horrible for a child. And also by the institution of forced divorce, we´re sending a lot of very harmful and destructive messages to children. We´re showing children that the family and the state are in effect dictatorships, in which children can be ripped apart from their parents for no reason, or for any reason, and they don´t have to have done anything wrong, or their parents don´t have to [have done anything wrong]."

Jipping asked, "We hear the phrase ‘no-fault divorce´ is that what you mean by forced divorce – is that what that becomes?"

Baskerville replied, "Absolutely. This was this deception that was brought [with] no-fault divorce. The idea was that this would be for mutual agreement -- you could have a divorce without a contest. What, in fact, it has become is [what is known as] unilateral divorce. And 80% of the divorces in this country are unilateral. They are over the objections of one parent. And that becomes even more when children are involved."

Jipping questioned, "So, does no-fault divorce really mean, under the state laws that govern the stuff, a divorce by only one of the two spouses for whatever reason that spouse chooses, not specified reasons?"

Baskerville said, "Overwhelmingly that´s true. And what´s even more shocking is that the parent that divorces is almost always the parent who expects to get custody of the children. A study by the University of Iowa found that the expectation of getting the children was the single most important factor in deciding who files for divorce."


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To: Sueann
Sue, How about a little lightness on the religious stuff. Lot's of people are very religious and still get divorced. Have a good day, and pray!!!!
261 posted on 12/16/2001 12:48:20 AM PST by Gracey
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To: Dr. Octagon
True...adultery isn't the only reason for divorce, but it's a shame that in most states, it no longer disadvantages the wife or husband who committed it. It should.

It definitely should. I know a guy whose wife cheated and wanted to take the kids to live with her new lover. It doesn't seem right that a man can lose his kids just because she got bored and thought she'd found someone more interesting. And also have to pay her good money and live in poverty himself when she left for that reason.

262 posted on 12/16/2001 12:49:42 AM PST by FITZ
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To: Gracey
Most guys do, when given a chance. With divorce between decent people, I'm for a "time spent" standard: time spent with the child by each parent after the marriage should reflect time spent within the marriage.

As to fairness to parents, it's having them live with the scenario they agreed to when they were together still.

As to the kids, it keeps thing as stable as possible for them.

263 posted on 12/16/2001 12:49:56 AM PST by Dr. Octagon
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To: FITZ
Agree entirely. Current judicial practice, unchecked by law, peripheralizes fathers no matter the character of their ex-wives.
264 posted on 12/16/2001 12:51:33 AM PST by Dr. Octagon
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To: Sueann
Husbands used to be legally in full control. So two hundred years ago, I would not have minded holding them responsible for marital success.

But this is the era of feminist jurisprudence, and in the 50% of cases where wife is at fault, wife should not come out on top.

265 posted on 12/16/2001 12:54:28 AM PST by Dr. Octagon
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To: onyx
Remove the lawyers from the equasion. Require each party to represent themselves in front of a jurist (judge). CPA's can handle the distribution of assets.

Best solution I've heard yet. How creative. Also, it just might keep the couple together without attorneys driving a wedge between the parties.

266 posted on 12/16/2001 12:57:02 AM PST by Gracey
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To: Gracey
If you mean private schools, concur.

If you mean The Hand That Rocks The Cradle, a/k/a the NEA public schools, no, no, no.

I'm bettin' you'd go with option #1, yes?

267 posted on 12/16/2001 12:57:20 AM PST by Dr. Octagon
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To: Gracey
Mediation works great. Feminist groups oppose it tooth and nail.
268 posted on 12/16/2001 12:58:08 AM PST by Dr. Octagon
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To: Dr. Octagon
In reply to post 199:

The multiple wage earner thing turned out to be a real rip-off. Prior to the '70's the two paycheck family was, by and large, optional. If you made $150.00 per week in 1970, you were doing reasonably well. A nice new car could be had for $3000.00, much cheaper models were available, and used cars were cheaper yet. Two bucks bought enough gas to get the needle to the half-tank mark, and the cities had not yet been deserted by folks with means.

Two paychecks brought inflation--double digits in the late '70's (the Carter years) and interest rates which caused states to rewrite their usury laws so the banks could borrow from the Fed. Cigarettes went from a quarter a pack to a buck, cars doubled in price, (which they have done twice more since), and housing costs soared. The net gain? diddley squat, Except:

Now parents were too tired to pay attention to each other and their children. Their children were becoming 'latchkey kids', with little direct supervision, and what direct supervision they had was in the hands of a growing liberal educational establishment. The breakdown of educational discipline (order in the schools) which accompanied racial desegregation in many areas only contributed to the growing pains of a youth who were not only told they were a disaffected segment of American population at every turn (the 'generation gap'), but were, by and large treated that way. Parents who could no longer 'relate' to their children found they had little in common, mainly from a lack of communication. TV placed another stumbling block in the way of simple conversation.

A few escaped the oncoming victimhood extravaganza by a combination of guts, grit, savoir faire, or the benefits of a stay-at-home parent or extended family. The rest were left to wallow in the still-fashionable morass of victimhood.

The groups who pushed for this had, I believe in retrospect (Mom said so at the time.), an agenda. That of dissolving the family unit as an effective basic unit of government, to further a socialist control over the children. "It takes a villiage" is just the latest battle cry from those ranks..

Parents working two jobs had little or no time to involve themselves in the arduous tasks of keeping up with the pap their children were being fed in school, nor time to involve themselves with politics. They quit reading the newspapers, preferring instead the effortless alternative of having their news told to them, then interpreted for them. Their political knowledge went down the tubes, they quit paying attention, and the BS level of school curriculae increased rapidly.

Instead of being brought up to pass a legacy of a better life to their children, they either conciously or subconciously decided that either their children deserved no better than they had (childish petulence), or tried to pass on the 'better life' through the only means which would permit them to justify their own economic precedences: the gift of material things as a substitute for the love and nurturing they were too immature, unprepared, or uncaring to provide..

I can only thank God that my folks made the economic sacrifice and gave the greater gift. Mom stayed at home and raised us, and though not gainfully employed, gained an impressive reputation in local politics, running for and being elected to the local school board, and as a noted conservationist, concerned with maintaining the ecological value of the region for its great wealth of harvestable renewable natural resources. My father worked, commuting 75 to 80 miles per day, round trip, from our home out in the 'boonies' (Great place to grow up.) and working a second job on Friday nights. (In addition, my Dad was--and still is at 70--involved in the Volunteer Fire Department locally, at the County, and State level and has participated in a number of other commissions covering a broad scope of local and regional problems.) Our housing costs were lower and we were in proximity to extended family on my mother's side. While some might have considered this a spartan economic existence, (after all we did not have all the things we may have thought we wanted), we had an abundance of guidance, supervision, and love. Of material things, there was enough, though never a lavish overabundance. We never felt 'poor', and to this day I am eternally grateful to my parents for the choices they made.

My family attended church regularly, gave to the folks who lived around us who were less well off, and in general, taught me to treat all persons with basic civility and respect.

I'm not saying all the lessons were learned equally well, but the tools are in place, all I need do is use them.

Now, my wife and I are a factor in the raising of our grandchildren (we are raising two), and it is up to me to pass on the concepts of what is important. I only pray I can do as well as my parents and grandparents did.

269 posted on 12/16/2001 1:08:44 AM PST by Smokin' Joe
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To: nopardons
...WE SHALL BURY YOU ! " ? hint... almost everyone has forgotten the second part of that sentence. It was " FROM WITHIN

Yep....David Horowitz will tell you all about it. He was a Khruschev "baby" --- Commie momma and poppa.

270 posted on 12/16/2001 1:09:57 AM PST by Gracey
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To: Dr. Octagon
Most guys do, when given a chance.

I agree. We all have our opinions regarding parents so here's mine.

Children NEED their momma when they're preteens but as teenagers, they definitely need to leave mamma and use Dad as a role model. This includes both guys and gals. There's nothing a daughter wants more, as a teenager, than her fathers approval. Same for the son.

271 posted on 12/16/2001 1:15:35 AM PST by Gracey
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To: Smokin' Joe
Cause for pause, that's one heckuva post. You draw a very astute picture of the last few decades.
272 posted on 12/16/2001 1:15:57 AM PST by Dr. Octagon
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To: Gracey
They need both parents, at every age...
273 posted on 12/16/2001 1:16:41 AM PST by Dr. Octagon
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To: Gracey
I'm sorry if my message offended you, but it was not in response to you - was it?? It was in response to the person who was blaming women for all the divorce - and I'm sorry, but that had to be challenged.

And ... God does not take divorce "lightly". And ... for your information I am divorced.

274 posted on 12/16/2001 1:18:15 AM PST by Sueann
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To: Gracey
That he was; one of many RED DIAPER BABIES ! The sticking point, though, is that the Stalinists ( Horowitz's father for one ) NEVER forgave Kruschev for pointing out that Stalin was a brutal murderer, and a paranoid. : - )
275 posted on 12/16/2001 1:20:52 AM PST by nopardons
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To: Sueann
Fault in divorce is the guy's half the time, his ex-wife's half the time.
276 posted on 12/16/2001 1:21:13 AM PST by Dr. Octagon
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To: Dr. Octagon
There you go again, saying it's the women's fault! Hmmmm? If your wife takes advantage of you - whose fault is that - HERS???? or the dummy who let her. Maybe if the husband would look more closely at what kind of person he's marrying, instead of what kind of body he's marrying, he wouldn't get taken to the cleaners so often.

Sorry, your argument doesn't hold water. Since God wrote the Bible, He has not changed his mind; He still holds the husband responsible for the relationship! I guess my Pastor is the only one willing to preach the truth to husbands.

277 posted on 12/16/2001 1:25:14 AM PST by Sueann
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To: Gracey
Being intimate is difficult for those who have been raised on Oprah, have been prevented from accomplishing much, and who have been taught their beliefs by rote.

Unfortunately, children are taught more about physical intimacy, and allowed to learn less about themselves.

One of the few benefits of organized religion is a framework for comparison of your beliefs with a standard; an opportunity to confront why you believe the things you believe. Political correctness has muzzled such constructive debate in the school environment; the conclusions are forgone. Labor laws which restrict the opportunities for our youth to make meaningful contributions to their communities further retard development of the individual regardless of sex, creed, or racial/ethnic background.

When and where I grew up, we could join the local Volunteer Fire Department at 14 as a junior member, be a full-fledged member at 16, an officer at 18. You did a man's job(if you were a male--Hell if you were one of the few females who made the non-gender normed grade, you still did a man's job), and got the respect due you for it (especially if you were a woman, because everyone knew the only reason you were there was because you could hack it and wanted to).

Ladling out daily rations of self-esteem makes kids feel good, but that leaves them with little but a feeling. They don't know why. That only comes with accomplishing something.

In that vein, feeling good crowds over into marital relationships, especially when you can't possibly relate to another person who you are if you do not know. Complicate that with sex, commonly prescribed mood altering drugs, low moral expectations, and the stage is set for disaster.

My advice to young couples?

Don't have sex for the first six months, and see if you keep getting along. Go someplace where there are no distractions and talk. If that works, don't quit talking.

278 posted on 12/16/2001 1:27:13 AM PST by Smokin' Joe
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To: Sueann
Where husbands have the authority the Bible advocates, they should have the responsibility advocated there, also. Where the feminist legal system undermines his authority by offering his wife advantages in divorce, we have a different scenario.
279 posted on 12/16/2001 1:30:21 AM PST by Dr. Octagon
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To: pcl
In my lifetime, I have never seen one person ever change another person by the usual methods (lecturing, force, guilt, argument, logic, etc). The only thing that any person can do to change another is to change themselves. When a person changes themselves they break the feedback cycle that is keeping all parties stuck in an infinite and reinforcing loop.

Right ON!!!! I recommend you for teaching "Before and After Marriage" classes. Excellent mouthful. :-)

280 posted on 12/16/2001 1:32:31 AM PST by Gracey
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