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WHY IS THE CHRISTIAN WORLD SILENT ?
??yaffa da costa ^ | December 6, 2001 | Ben Eliahou

Posted on 12/11/2001 1:28:15 AM PST by lavaroise

December 6, 2001 File: 186

WHY IS THE CHRISTIAN WORLD SILENT ?

Why is the Christian world silent in the face of anti-Christian terror ? Alarm bells of Moslem anti-Christian conduct have been evident for years.

Many Muslim-ruled countries have dismal records when it comes to religious freedom and tolerance. Christians are particularly discriminated against. Why is the free world's reaction too often muffled ? Why are Christians silent ? Is it because we are afraid to step on the sensitive toes of "Big Oil" a.k.a "Arab Oil" ? Jews, once a majority in Medina, have long disappeared from Saudi Arabia as well as from most Arab countries. By Islamic laws . Jews were always second class citizens. After Five Arab nations attacked the newly established State of Israel, 800,000 Jews fled from their ancestral homes in 22 Arab lands abandoning everything they owned. Christians throughout the Moslem world are facing the same pressure: coercion, intimidation , constraints and extortion. By contrast, roughly 1.8 million to 2 million Muslims in the U.S. are free to construct mosques, set up their own nonprofit groups, evangelize for their own religion and raise funds here -- protected by the First mendment.

Here are some facts:

1. Christianity is banned in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Kuwait. Saudi Arabia has refused a U.S. appeal to release more than a dozen Christians accused of practicing their faith .

2. The U.S. State Department rates Afghanistan among the worst religious freedom violator -- along with Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Sudan, where leaving Islam for another religion is a capital offense.

3. "First the Saturday people [Jews], then the Sunday people [ Christians]." This Moslem strategy seeks to impose Islam not only on Jews [ Saturday people] but also on Christians. Moslem anti-Christian hatred has also come to the fore in Israel; The Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee heard expert testimony that "vandalism of Christian graves" in the PA-controlled areas has been on the rise of late. From one town of Beit Sahour (Bethlehem-area) fifty Christian families tried to emigrate in just one month. Christians have fled from Bethlehem, Nazareth and other cities out of fear, coercion and duress.

4. Turkmenistan -- Four Baptists were tortured for having religious literature in their car.

5. . Former U.S. Senator Connie Mack, upon returning from Israel, told the Senate, " I met one evening, privately - secretly - with Arabs who were being persecuted for the Christian faith... One man [who was arrested by the Palestinian Authority police] was beaten and hung from the ceiling by his hands for many hours on charges of selling land to Jews, [but] he was poor and had no land. [His son said he was] held hostage to prevent him from talking with people about his faith... It caused me to ask, 'How can the people of Israel find peace when the Palestinian Authority engages in coercion and torture based only upon religious beliefs?'"

6. Nigeria, Indonesia and Sudan lead the world in actual death tolls of Christians, according to the Center for Religious Freedom at Freedom House -- and the number of Christians and animists who have perished in Sudan is estimated at 2 million.

7. In January 2000, the Palestinian Authority forcefully took over the Russian Orthodox church in Jericho. In July 1997, PA para-military police burst into a monastery in Hebron, beat and dragged out the monks and nuns, injuring five monks and three nuns.

8. A Christian member of Congress Rep. Mike Pence (R-Indiana), testified that the desecration of Jewish history on the Temple Mount is "an outrageous example of an attempt by the Palestinian Authority to show no regard to the important claim that both Jewish and Christian history have on that site." "Millions of believing Christians and Jews across America cherish that site.... $125 million is being used (by the P.A.) to excavate the site without any regard to its unique history and without any regard to standard archaeological protocol"

9.. Maronite Catholic Church has accused Syria undermining Lebanon's existence. In a statement the Council of Maronite Bishops said Lebanon was fast losing its identity because of Syrian "tutelage." Fear and intimidation are but two of many reasons why Christians have fled from Lebanon, especially since Syria "annexed" Lebanon.

10. Moslem gunmen attacked a Christian Church in Southern Pakistan killing 15 Christians in a Pakistani church. Christians feared they could become targets if unrest broke out in Muslim Pakistan over opposition to the U.S. attacks on neighboring Afghanistan's ruling Muslim Taliban militia.

11. American courts recently granted asylum to Palestinian Christian Arabs, on the grounds that they would be persecuted for their religious beliefs if they return to PA-controlled territory.

Sources: Julia Duin, "Christians Face Dismal Plight in Islamic Realms," Washington Times, November 6, 2001; various Jerusalem Post and New York Times articles.

Sincerely, Ben Eliahou Manalapan, NJ 07726


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; christianlist; christianpersecutio; religion
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To: weikel; ZULU
I said Christanity is better than Islam just that I don't like theocracies.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

As Zulu points out, a nation that leans to Christian virtues is a good thing but as a Christian, I have no interest in the establishment of a Christian theocracy in America and as far as I know, very few Christians would even entertain such an idea. Having this 'fear' of a theocracy brought up every time someone maentions that they would like to see all Americans convert to Christianity is tiresome as well as false.

Christianity is not about force or government. Christianity is a 'religion' (life choice, really) of love, peace and submission. Christians are admonished to submit to the authorities, as they are God-ordained. Yes, even Clinton. Christians can serve in government (as President Bush, AG Ashcroft and others do) but there is no scripture that in any way endorses a Christian theocracy, only a missionary zeal to spread the Good News of Christ and salvation through Him, not to establish a government. Christ's kingdom is not of this world, Satan has that realm as the actions of most governments demonstrate. Christians look for something far better while doing the best we can to spread the Word in this world and living a life that Christ would have us live.

A Christian Theocracy is not part of that and never will be, along with the fact that the majority of the people in American, although they might be religious in some manner, also would strongly reject such a notion, and we all know it.

81 posted on 12/11/2001 2:23:10 PM PST by Jim Scott
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
ROFL......
82 posted on 12/11/2001 2:46:30 PM PST by DreamWeaver
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To: weikel
Last I checked, I could do both...
83 posted on 12/11/2001 3:29:27 PM PST by L,TOWM
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To: lavaroise; Coyote
WHY IS THE CHRISTIAN WORLD SILENT ?

Because the vast majority of Christianity has been hijacked by the heirs and disciples of Gramsci. As witnessed by mainstram religion's self-blaming, victimist and pacifist worldview. No cause - aside from leftist causes - worth fighting for. No corruption too extreme to excuse. No crime to horrible or grotesque for just retribution.

These so-called 'spiritual leaders' are traitors to humanity itself. As they deserve their shame, they also deserve their fate - right, Coyote?

84 posted on 12/11/2001 3:43:26 PM PST by Noumenon
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To: L,TOWM
You can do both just your efforts are better devoted to the NRA. NRA about preserving the 2nd amendment. Christian Coalition is about imposing laws that they interpret plz god.
85 posted on 12/11/2001 4:18:52 PM PST by weikel
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To: VRWCmember
Sorry, that's what I get for not looking at scripture when I quote it. That's also why the Word says, "Faith cometh by hearing [and hearing, and hearing] . . . " and not by having heard. But either way, Paul and I are in agreement, I think.
86 posted on 12/11/2001 5:35:31 PM PST by LS
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To: chookter
Instead of playing your school boy games, why don't you ask a legitimate question.

I've seen you on other threads with your 'talibornagain'... accusing, digging, and generally making an idiot of yourself.

Instead of calling me names, why don't you ask what I meant by my statement. I will explain it to you.

Instead of twisting what I said to fit your assumptions, why not ask.

The answer may amaze you.

Or would you rather just continue merrily on your way making a fool of yourself...

87 posted on 12/12/2001 4:31:45 AM PST by carton253
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Comment #88 Removed by Moderator

Comment #89 Removed by Moderator

To: LS

In response to your condescending attitude toward persecuted Christians, you have an arrogant way of mishandling the Bible to make it say what you want it to.

You should be grateful that you are fortunate enough to live in a time and place where you can worship freely.

I am not going to get into a Bible debate, but Christ taught that being His disciple required forsaking everything including one's own life.

To deride those who must face the possibility of death or torture in order to become a Christian, makes your version (or perversion) of Christianity highly suspect.


90 posted on 09/08/2004 12:14:23 PM PDT by unlearner (you are an arrogant fool)
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To: unlearner
I didn't "deride" anyone. This is typical---to accuse me of merely repeating what the Bible says---of those who really don't read the Word and who want to go with what "established religion" has fed them for a few hundred years.

As for martyrs, I challenge you to find me ONE PLACE, ONE, in the Bible, where it says after a martyrdom that people came to Christ. You can't find it.

But you know what you do find? EVERY TIME there were healings and people raised from the dead, people came to Christ. Seems to me if we are to grow the kingdom, more of the latter would be in operation and less of the former.

91 posted on 09/08/2004 2:23:46 PM PDT by LS
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To: VRWCmember

I choose live.


92 posted on 09/08/2004 2:24:21 PM PDT by LS
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To: LS
From your first post:

1) Paul said that in Hebrews that the martyrs REJECTED a deliverance from the Lord---their choice

2) only when he [Paul] IGNORED the prophetic warnings of the Holy Spirit not to go to Jerusalem was he imprisoned.

3) I notice that NOT ONE PERSON, EVER, was directly converted as a result of a martyr. Oh, there was lots of mourning.

From your second post:

4) I didn't "deride" anyone. This is typical---to accuse me of merely repeating what the Bible says---of those who really don't read the Word ...

5) As for martyrs, I challenge you to find me ONE PLACE, ONE, in the Bible, where it says after a martyrdom that people came to Christ. You can't find it.

6) But you know what you do find? EVERY TIME there were healings and people raised from the dead, people came to Christ. Seems to me if we are to grow the kingdom, more of the latter would be in operation and less of the former.

I will address these one by one:

1) Paul is the assumed author of Hebrews. The passage you misquoted, Hebrews 11:35, does not mention deliverance "from the Lord". If you have ever read any of Foxe's Book of Martyrs, you would know that many Christian martyrs could escape torture and death by simply renouncing Christ. This is true today. It was true in Paul's day. In fact Paul admitted that he, before his conversion, compelled Christians to blaspheme (Acts 26:11).

2) Paul was in prison many times (2 Corinthians 11:23), not "only" when he supposedly "ignored" the warnings. Paul wrote much of the New Testament from prison.

3) See #5 (your challenge).

4) You did deride them by a condescending attitude toward their plight- as if they were more Spirit-led, like you, they would not go through these things. The Bible clearly states the opposite. "All who will live godly in Christ Jesus SHALL suffer persecution" 2 Timothy 3:12. "Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that we should follow in His steps" 2 Peter 2:21. Christians who have laid their lives on the line should be afforded more respect as in Acts 16:26, Philippians 2:29-30 and others.

5) Here are several examples rather than the "ONE PLACE, ONE, in the Bible" you challenged me to find:

Though technically not a martyr, Christ said He "will draw all" people to Himself through His death- John 12:32. And according to the previous verse I mentioned in 2 Peter, His sufferings were a pattern for Christians to follow.

2 Peter 3:14-17 also indicates that if a Christian patiently suffers for doing what is right, it will cause non-christians to inquire as to the cause of their hope.

According to Revelation 12:11, the testimony of Christians will be spread because they "loved not their lives unto the death."

Daniel 11:33-12:3 refers to martyrs and other persecuted saints who, as a result of their plight, will "instruct many" and "turn many to righteousness".

In Luke 21:12-16 Jesus said His disciples would be persecuted and put to death, but these things would "turn to them for a testimony".

Acts 7-9 tells of the first martyr of the Christian church, Stephen, who prayed for God to spare his persecutors. God answered his prayer in chapter 9 as he turned Paul (then called "Saul") from darkness to light.

6) Christ criticized His generation because "except you see signs and wonders, you will not believe" John 4:48. Signs and wonders can be fraudulent according Revelation 16:14. It is God's Word that converts, not miracles. See John 6:26, 68 and 69 and Luke 16:31.

If you will not hear the scripture, you do not have ears to hear.
93 posted on 09/08/2004 11:12:31 PM PDT by unlearner (Do you have ears to hear?)
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To: unlearner
To address your points:

Yes, many had "deliverance" offered only for repudiation of the Gospel. That is ABSOLUTELY not clear in Hebrews. It is certainly not clear in Paul's case where the HS warned him directly not to go, twice, and He disobeyed.

Yes, Paul and Peter were in prison many times. We only have one recorded instance (as far as I know) where Peter "prayed" while in prison---now hang with me here---and on that occasion he was freed. What do you suppose he prayed about? Perhaps his release? It is important to separate the will of God from the will of man. God cannot act if you do not allow Him to act. This is true of salvation---no one can be saved against his will. It's just as true of earthly circumstances. Barring a "Biblical timeline" event that requires a person to be in such-and-such a place, God cannot force you "out" of prison if you aren't praying to be released. Now, why wouldn't Peter or Paul pray to be released? All sorts of reasons. Your mindset is one of them---perhaps they had the same (but that doesn't make it scriptural, because, after all, Peter betrayed Christ. They are not infallible nor were they fully filled with revelation, because all revelation hadn't been given yet). We don't know why they didn't ask to be released---all we know is that when Peter DID pray he was released.

Sorry, using Christ as a martyr won't work. You are not the Son of God, nor can you be a substitute for sin. That was the ONLY reason the Son of Man must "suffer and die." If any man could "suffer and die" and have something good come out of it, we wouldn't need Jesus. Try again. You can't find one.

You are playing right into my hands. Absolutely, all Christians will suffer "persecution." What is persecution? It CAN be torture and death . . . if you let it. So are all Christians who are not tortured "Christians?" They can't be by your definition. But there is another alternative: look at what happened to Jesus for the 3.5 years He walked the earth in ministry PRIOR to HIS ATONING DEATH. Until the last week of His life, He never once, not one time, was physically assaulted, beaten, tortured, or otherwise harmed. In fact, the LORD Himself on two occasions supernaturally ESCAPED violence by somehow walking right through crowds. (Likely He became invisible or the Holy Spirit concealed Him). In other words, except for the actual ATONING DEATH and prophetic torture that He went through---that you or I have not scriptural purpose in going through---Jesus was never once so much as touched. But He was "persecuted" for 3.5 years. How? He was verbally attacked, called names, harassed by the Pharisees. I am persecuted at my work all the time: mocked, ridiculed, called names. You equate persecution with a crown of thorns. No. It can be, but it can also be other things. All Christians at one time or another are persecuted. But all Christians are not tortued or die "for Christ." Most die of old age. That doesn't make them less Christian. It is you who essentially deride everyone who DOESN'T die a martyr's death.

Yes we should "afford them more respect," in the sense that their willingness to die is awesome. But that is different than saying they UNDERSTAND scripture or have good judgment. This is especially true since, if I am right that you cannot find one single example of someone born again after a martyrdom IN THE BIBLE (not "Foxes book of martyrs"), it means that they died early when they could have won "souls" to Christ. Now, the Bible says they get a special reward. Don't know how you can improve on eternal life, but I'm happy to have the soul-winners' crown and other crowns that are laid up.

Daniel is OT. You still don't have one single instance where you can point to one person whose life was converted. Not one. In fact, Stephen's martyrdom didn't affect Paul in the least, because he was on his way to KILL MORE CHRISTIANS after he killed Stephen.

IF "signs and wonders" were so bad, why did not only JESUS perform them---and bring people to Himself EVERY TIME He did---but ALL the apostles did. EVERY ONE. Pretty lame to try and use the "signs and wonders" here. Jesus criticized people because they could not see PAST the signs and wonders, but HE NEVER FAILED TO HEAL ONE SINGLE PERSON who came to Him, not one.

Try again.

94 posted on 09/09/2004 3:45:27 AM PDT by LS
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To: LS
I suspect that trying to reason with you is a waste of time, but I will give one last try.

You apparently ignored the many Bible references I provided or failed to comprehend them.

My point is not that every Christian is meant to be a martyr, or that every "martyr" is worthy of that title. I am disagreeing with your assertion which seems to be that God would never allow a Christian to be imprisoned or killed if that Christian is truly following His will.

Your comments were in reply to a post exposing many atrocities being committed against Christians. Right now, in Sudan, Pakistan and many other places, young girls are being raped, property is being seized, people are being imprisoned and killed for being "Christian". Your heartless reply carries no sympathy, sadness, pity, just smug, self-righteous condescension that if these people were as spiritual and enlightened as you, they would not be going through these things. You are WRONG!

You said "Go ahead, then, and demonstrate your faith by flying over to Yemen or the Sudan". I could just as easily say to you, if you really have the power to work miracles and "raise the dead", you go over to these countries and liberate the imprisoned Christians and raise these martyrs back to life. The reason you will not be doing this is because you CANNOT. (And don't misconstrue that as saying that God cannot. I did not say that. I know God can raise the dead. You cannot.)

You said, "Sorry, using Christ as a martyr won't work." Again, I stated clearly that Christ was not a martyr. But His death was exemplary of the willing sacrifice that is required to be His disciple. "The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord... fear not them which kill the body... he that taketh not his cross and followeth after Me, is not worthy of Me." Matthew 10:24, 28, 38.

You said "Yes, Jesus told Peter that he would be killed, but Jesus did NOT tell any other apostle that directly." NOT TRUE either. Jesus said "You shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of, and with the baptism that I am baptized with, you shall be baptized" Mark 11:39. He was referring to His death (John 17:11). I Corinthians 4:9- "God has set forth us, the apostles, last, as it were, appointed unto death". All of the apostles were historically recorded to be martyred except John (no historical record). Further, I gave you six Biblical passages supporting the idea that martyrdom can impact others leading them to convert to Christ. These contain four specific occurrences that resulted in either a conversion or clear witness of the gospel. I will give you another (this makes seven Biblical passages I have provided to repudiate your false doctrine): Colosians 1:24 "Who now rejoice in my [Paul's] sufferings for you [the Colosian believers], and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for His body's sake, which is the church."

You said, "IF 'signs and wonders' were so bad, why did not only JESUS perform them---and bring people to Himself EVERY TIME He did---but ALL the apostles did. EVERY ONE." I did not say that signs and wonders were bad, look again. I said they are not the basis of faith; the Word of God is. Romans 10:17- "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." And of course the apostles all did miracles, that was of a sign of being an apostle. (2 Corinthians 12:12) You are not an apostle and cannot perform apostolic miracles.

You said "you cannot find one single example of someone born again after a martyrdom IN THE BIBLE (not 'Foxes book of martyrs')". First, I cited Foxes Book of Martyrs for historical context in reply to your misinterpretation of Hebrews 11:35. You claimed that these people, who were examples of faith, did not have enough faith to accept deliverance from the Lord. The text does not bear this out. I refuted your claim. Read it again. Your are forcing your presuppositions into the text.

You said "Daniel is OT. You still don't have one single instance where you can point to one person whose life was converted. Not one. In fact, Stephen's martyrdom didn't affect Paul in the least, because he was on his way to KILL MORE CHRISTIANS after he killed Stephen." I was asserting that Stephen's death, or rather his response in the face of it, led to God's direct intervention in Paul's life. The passage does not emphatically state such, but the correlation is reasonable even if you do not accept it. Yes, Daniel is Old Testament. Am I supposed to rip the OT out of my Bible? The passage I cited was prophecy about events in the future, not OT.

Your position about the spirituality of imprisoned and martyred Christians is especially worrisome in light of Christ's teaching - "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand 'Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry, and you gave me no food. I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink. I was a stranger, and you took me not in. I was naked, and you did not clothe me. I was sick and in prison, and you did not visit me'. And they will ask when they did this. And he will reply, 'Truly I say to you, in as much as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me'. These shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal. " Mathew 25:41-46.
95 posted on 09/09/2004 10:10:37 AM PDT by unlearner (none is so blind as he who will not see)
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To: unlearner
1) You assume my attitude toward people in the Sudan. You assume wrong, but that's your business.

You still have no example, by name, of any individual saved as a result of a martyrdom. Paul is not an example. He is the exact opposite. It took direct intervention by Jesus, which indicates a pretty hard heart, not a changed heart.

3) John did not die a martyr's death.

4) It's interesting that Jesus did not tell Peter he would have to die until PETER said he would die for Jesus. We do not know what confessions the others made, but, since they died martyrs' deaths, I assume they made similar confessions.

5) No we do not walk by miracles and signs. But signs are supposed to FOLLOW faith. Someone with faith and not signs is, would you say, suspect?

But you're right. There is no need for further discussion. Your quotations about spiritual blindness might best be directed inward.

96 posted on 09/09/2004 11:33:05 AM PDT by LS
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To: LS
"You assume my attitude toward people in the Sudan." You were the one posting comments about these people. No sympathy, no sadness from you, just pointing out how the Bible supposedly teaches that anyone with enough faith would not experience these things. This is the attitude your words conveyed and you have yet to state otherwise.

When confronted with your own hardness of heart you have repeatedly rejected any criticism of it.

"You still have no example, by name, of any individual saved as a result of a martyrdom." You haven't provided one single scripture to back up your claim, which is that God's perfect will for all Christians never includes martyrdom or prison. If that is not your point, you have had many opportunities to clarify.

I have provided many scriptures. By your criteria, only the book of Acts would be allowed for purpose of example. But even there you are not going to find someone saying, "Hey, I decided to become a Christian because of the martyrdom of Stephen" or "because of the miracles I saw". You just filter out any idea that does not neatly fit into your way of seeing things.

"John did not die a martyr's death. " AGAIN, YOU FAIL TO EVEN READ WHAT I WROTE BEFORE YOU ANSWER IT. I CLEARLY STATED THAT JOHN WAS NOT HISTORICALLY RECORDED AS BEING A MARTYR. That is because there is no verifiable record of his death. When an attempt on his life failed, he was exiled to Patmos, where he received the vision known as "Revelation". According to your doctrine, John's lack of faith landed him there. I suppose he should have been receiving God's Word in some luxury accommodations that he received by "faith". Yeah, just like Christ lived in mansions. Oops, He did not did He?

"I assume they made similar confessions" You made my point, YOU ASSUME a lot of things, then claim that your assumptions are what the Bible must mean.

Quite frankly, I expected at some point you were going to say I had misunderstood your position, or conceded that your position is just what you believe God wants for you and not the case of every Christian. Instead, you have dug a deeper and deeper hole.

This type of fixation on such an indefensible position as yours is indicative of a deeper problem. Since you are so entranced with signs and wonders, you ought to know what a word of knowledge about dishonest business dealings would mean. I have a feeling you know exactly what I am talking about.
97 posted on 09/09/2004 3:38:37 PM PDT by unlearner
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To: unlearner
Nope. No deep holes here. Just your repeated shouting. But you still can't find any proof. I asked for just one person in the Bible, one example where it said, "'x' died and many came to God" or "following y's death, many praised God and thousands were converted." Nope.

Again, though, we have countless examples of people who were healed, or raised from the dead, followed by massive conversions.

Now, a normal person led by the Spirit might actually think about that for a minute.

98 posted on 09/09/2004 5:10:45 PM PDT by LS
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To: LS
This is the first reasonably sane reply you've made.

Yet you failed to clarify whether my perception of your position is accurate.

Do you actually think that Christians in Sudan and Pakistan are being raped, robbed, thrown into prison and killed because they are not as spiritually enlightened as you are? Please tell me that is not what you believe. Tell me that you thank God for living in a free country.

I agree that healing and miracles are connected in scripture with massive conversions. Conversion itself is a miracle and cannot be done by a person.

Conversions and miracles are both results of preaching the Word of God. Miracles are not the causative factor.

So, in the sense you are saying, martyrdom would not CAUSE others to be converted, but neither would miracles. Miracles, persecution, and conversions were all results of proclaiming the Word of God.

You asked for specific example, but you refuse to admit Stephen's part in the story of Paul's conversion. It was just as much a part of the story as were the miracles happening then.

What I mean is that because Stephen followed Christ's example in response to his enemies, God intervened toward Paul. No, Paul did not say,"Hey, I was impressed with how that Stephen took it like a man, I think I'll be one of those Christians". No, but God did answer his prayer for mercy upon his enemies (one of which was Paul).

My frustration with what you have been saying is that you seem to look at the Sudanese and Pakistani and other martyrs including Stephen and say, "What a waste". Is that what you think? Obviously it is sad, but you think their deaths were in vain? You think they were not as wise or as spiritual as you are?

Please answer this, you haven't yet.

What did Christ mean when He taught that to be His disciple required forsaking even our own lives? What does it mean to take up our cross and follow Him? What does it mean to lay down our lives for the brethren?

Have you ever counted this cost of discipleship? Do you think there is no cost?
99 posted on 09/09/2004 6:22:47 PM PDT by unlearner
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To: unlearner
1) Let me answer your first question this way: if (don't know your sex) you or your wife had a tumor in your breast, but had never (out of ignorance) gone for a mammogram, you would die. The cancer killed you, but essentially you died out of ignorance. That is not a "slight" or a derision, but a fact. Now, in the cases of entire societies being surrounded by an enemy army, then killed, that is no one person's fault. Yes they are killed because they are "Christians," but they are also killed because they are in the wrong tribe with the wrong political leader. I don't think it scripturally accurate to portray these people as "martrys" because they happen to be Christians. That is the EXCUSE the demonic forces attacking them are using, but mark my words, they would just as surely be killed if they were animists or Buddhists.

In cases like this, I believe "enlightenment" could save some. But when were the true choices made? Let's back up: when could the Jews in Germany have saved themselves? There were opportunities---but they came at high financial costs. From 1934-1939, Jews could leave Germany if they left all but $10,000. People COULD have voted against Hitler---but they didn't. All this is choices. Millions of German Christians died who did NOT do their political duty in stopping Hitler. I'm not "blaming" anyone: I'm stating a fact that ultimately all of us have choices.

Back to my cancer example. By the time you find you have a tumor the size of a pear in your breast, it's too late. You have already made your choices. Now, some of those were uninformed choices or ignorant choices. But as they say, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse." With the Word of God, we have promises. God said He would "make a way of escape." Note NOT THE DEVIL would make a "way of escape," and God's "way of escape" is never death. So we can only assume that God has a way for us to get out of nasty situations without compromising ourselves.

So, ignorance of the promises of the Word is no excuse. If the Bible says, "By His stripes ye are healed," and you don't KNOW that, you will never get healed. If the Word says God will make "a way of escape," and you don't know that, you are dead. That's why it is important we get good teaching and good doctrine. I thank God all the time that I live in a free country, and, more important, for my teachers and pastors who have taught me in the Word so that I can KEEP IT FREE.

I agree that conversions always came by preaching the Word and not specifically the miracles. That's why (can't cite the verse here, no time) I think Paul said to preach and THEN heal. I think you are confusing "miracles" (acts of God) with FAITH (acts of one's own faith). Most of the healings we are talking about that led to conversions were not miracles, but acts of the faith of the people who came based on (as you rightly say) the Word.

But you are getting a litte far from my point that martyrdom cannot be linked in any case to a conversion. My point is that if martyrdom was "the plan" for even MOST Christians, then every time there was a martyr mentioned in the Bible, we would have records of mass conversions based on that inspiration. We do not. Just the opposite. The Bible is deafening with this silence.

Now, I know this is tough---and please don't write me again unless you really want to discuss this without denominational blinders---but look at Stephen. Why was Stephen martyred? Go back to my premise that people make choices. When Stephen is introduced, he is in what we call the "helps" ministry. He is in the church, serving people food and ministering to their needs in the church. We have NO RECORD of him being called as an "evangelist"---which is a specific "office," as opposed to a "preacher" which we all are supposed to be. Yet the next time we see Stephen---with no other explanation---he is performing the duties of an evangelist. Did Stephen step outside his anointing? Did he go beyond what he was authorized or instructed to do? I believe so. I believe that he opened himself to that particular persecution---OUT OF A GOOD HEART AND A DESIRE TO SERVE GOD---but out of a somewhat rebellious but enthusiastic spirit. "That would never happen," you say. No? Look at the guy who was carrying the ark. The ark started to fall. Out of a good spirit and a desire to "help" God, he reached down (disobediently) and grabbed the ark . . . and died! Just being enthusiastic does not overcome being disobedient, and we all have to know what our disobedience level is.

Question: who is greater, Christ or Stephen? Did not Christ ask for mercy on His enemies? Who are His enemies? At the time, Paul. Why would you then claim Stephen's prayer was superior to that of the Lord's? It was JESUS plea, NOT STEPHEN'S which saved Paul. You still have no example of a "successful" martrydom.

If "forsaking your lives" meant that you died the minute you became a Christian, there would be no church today, can you agree? So obviously it doesn't mean that. Jesus said we would "suffer" like Him. We must rule out the cross, because you and I can never "suffer for mankind." It is impossible. How did Jesus suffer for 3.5 years? He was persecuted. As I say, I'm persecuted nearly daily.

"Forsaking your lives" means forsaking your life of sin and taking up your cross. But that cannot mean a physical cross---unless you are one of those people who walks across the country carrying a big wooden cross, in which case there is little hope. It means taking up your CHALLENGE in life---your CHRISTIAN challenge---and defeating it in Jesus' name. I don't know what your challenges are. I know what mine are. Paul said we must bring the body and mind under control at all time. That's a "cross." That's a daily challenge. If you do that, believe me, you have "forsaken you life." You quit thinking about you and start thinking about others.

As for the brothers and sisters in the Sudan, we should a) pray that they receive revelation that they don't have to sit and take it; b) bring to their attention the words of Romans that the government does not exist for the wicked. They ain't wicked, and they need to rise up and take back their government, by force if necessary. c) We should pray that those incapable of fighting or defending themselves SEE their "way of escape," and, in the natural, help make that way of escape.

I think our discussion is finished. You have much to think about. I rest easy in the Holy Spirit. Now, "Study to show yourself approved."

100 posted on 09/10/2004 4:25:47 AM PDT by LS
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