TWA FLIGHT 800

3rd party | 11/27/01 | Fred Roberts

[sandydipper]

Today I had conversation with a commercial pilot who said that in July of 1996 just after the SHOOT DOWN of TWA800 a co-worker also a commercial pilot told him that he was sent to Paris to pick up the TWA president and fly him back to DC. The second pilot was a military pilot at the time and said that as soon as they returned to DC the TWA guy was helicoptered to the White House.

[timestax]

btttt

[timestax]

bttt

[barf]

The 'official' source is the NTSB report itself. That is the only reference that I used. The FDR anomalies came out of Exhibit 10A. Please note that after posting the anomalies the government removed them. Why? Possibly they showed that the stated cause being a CWT explosion could not have occurred. My discovery of the sled came from Exhibit 13A. My observation of the P3 being at 20,000 feet and the sled being at 17,600 feet came from Exhibit 13E. The NTSB report was much more honest than the heads of the NTSB. They contradict one another. The report shows much more than the administration is willing to admit to. Blaming the crash on a CWT explosion is a flat out lie. The radar record should be bona fide evidence of that. Having faith in your friends is admirable but the real evidence is in the report. The FDR anomalies show that they all are supportive of one another if a violent CCW yaw and negative pitch occurred at the time of the initiating event. The debris pattern supports this as well. Nothing is indicative of a CWT event. BTW, TWA is now out of business. Their last flight occurred yesterday. If TWA800 contributed to the loss of TWA the airline, then the government slandered not only Boeing but TWA as well. Why can't we have a government which tells us the truth. Thank you for asking. I am a retired graduate aeronautical engineer and have taken an interest in this crash since the beginning. It shows a very corrupt government which can not tell the truth.

[SBeck]

The report, which still hasn't been published yet in the Federal Register, shows all these anomalies and I'm glad you didn't blame the investigation team. However, blaming the board itself would also be a tough sell since there are 5 members of the board of which 2 must be members of the party that is currently not occupying the White House. You would think that any shenanigans regarding the evidence or the probable cause would 1) cause the minority members of the board to run screaming to Congress and 2) cause the technical team to resign enmass. We didn't see that and I find it highly unlikely - given the current state of out-of-control partisianship - that there could be a mass collusion effort.

As I said earlier, I will wait until the report is published in the Register.

[barf]

Party membership is no control on corruptness. Both sides of our Congress are equally greedy in favoring big money lobbyists. I could agree with a cover-up if the shooter were a British submarine. We need their cooperation, especially today. But history demands that the truth be told eventually. I hope to be still vertical when that occurs. There is an alternate approach if the truth is to be withheld. That would be to state that the reason involves national security concerns and an official report will follow at a later date. But if the truth were withheld because Bill Clinton was up for reelection while facing a war hero while he was the CinC during a military screwup and was known as a draftdodger, Bob Dole could have easily taken some votes away from Clinton. It would be difficult for Bob Dole to not have known the facts in any case, though. If a bona fide reason existed, I would tend to lean toward a foreign shooter of the missile during a CEC. British sub involvement in the shooting of cruise missiles over So.CA is history and a shooting of a KKV is conceivable as well. The submarine shown as the 30-knot target was a modern one with a large diameter stealth propeller design. Its usage of modern weapons would be compatible. I have to guess that the missile guidance system was locked onto the sled in the beginning but was later drawn off by the higher heat coming from a climbing B747. Some witness data was that an object made a hard turn and flew in a zigzag course before closing in on the B747. This agrees with the offset of the plane's location relative to a straight line drawn from the sub to the sled. The hard turn would have been to an Easternly direction.

[barf]

If publishing in the National Register is the controlling criteria, when is this to occur? The board members may be as brain dead as the sheeple in this matter. The evidence is in the NTSB report and they likely have no inkling of what it says. If anyone were to object, they had good reason to do so in Bal'mer when no witnesses were called and the Boeing representatives sat with their fingers up their butts. That was a kangaroo court in the finest.

[timestax]

bttt

[Criminal Number 18F]

Your sources are:

alt.disasters.aviation

A usenet grope that perfectly illustrates why Usenet is in precipitous decline, or

twa800@Yahoogroups.com

The Yahoo grope that is home to those Yahoos too far out for their peers in ADA. Thanks, but no thanks. You still haven't cited anyone credible, just two places where cranks hang out.

Hmmm... have you taken a course on accident investigation... read a book perhaps? I have about fifty books on air accidents and investigating same. I am writing a book on a closely related subject. I read all the NTSB reports (yeah, even the general aviation ones... actually they are usually the most interesting) and have a bunch of airline ones here, hundreds and hundreds of pages each (not the cheesy little synopsis they put on the web).

The chief investigator of the TWA 800 disaster has some impressive credentials. Thousands of hours as a pilot, advanced degrees, twenty years in the Army. Better credentials than mine (I might have put more years in the service than him, is all; he beats me on flying hours and has better degrees, so far). Against that we've got... the Yahoo TWA 800 crank group.

From the posts here (not necessarily yours, thatstan; this is a portmanteau reply) it's the most massive conspiracy of all recorded history: both political parties are in on it, the five board members (hi-powered politicos who know diddly about aviation, usually) are in on it, the teams of investigators (NTSB *and* FBI) are in on it, the Navy is in on it, and a bunch of retired and former military men that swore to uphold the constitution (as did the FBI, NTSB, etc). are all in on it. SBeck is in on it... well, he went to an aviation school, so he MUST be tainted with the conspiracy! All the professors and students are in on it.

The only people that are not in on it are some reporter who stole a couple pieces of wreckage (this is common, by the way; souvenir hunters turn fearless investigators when they get caught) and that last bastion of faith, hope, and ignorance, Yahoo eGroups.

I would advise everybody who is interested in what befell TWA 800 to (1) get a good grounding in logic, and (2) learn something about aviation, engineering, or even physics. Once upon a time a college-prep high school education took you there but these days it doesn't. If you took one good undergrad course in logical reasoning (ideally taught by a cagey old jesuit) and one course in aviation engineering or safety (Ideally taught by prof Martin at ERAU) you would see why ALL the people who are educated about this stuff are part of the conspiracy against you -- or what the real deal is.

That's all... I gotta run... I'm late for my Bilderberger meeting. Or is Sunday Freemasons? Oh man... where's my day-timer?

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

[Asmodeus]

"Elmeritis is still around and needs to be stilled. Sticking up for corruption in government is not, and has never been, patriotic no matter much self deception that one may use. Allowing one lie to pass without objection only leads to more lies.

What do you mean by "stilled"?

Killed?

What is your evidence and reference source URL thereon that "Elmeritis" "sticks up for corruption in government"?

What is your evidence and reference source URL thereon that "Elmeritis" has told at least "one lie" about the Flight 800 disaster?

Or are you a tinfoil hat Flight 800 "shootdown" conspiracy theorist skinhead who makes wildly reckless accusations without any supporting evidence?

Your reply will answer that question for all the readers.

[SBeck]

Likely soon, they are in the process of wrapping it up. Incidentally, James Hall, the chair of the NTSB when the accident happened, will be speaking in Daytona Beach this coming spring. Perhaps you'd like to address some of your concerns with him.

[Asmodeus]

"Some witness data was that an object made a hard turn and flew in a zigzag course before closing in on the B747."

What are the names of the witnesses you're referring to and where are the reference source URLs for their reports that you're supposedly relying on for those allegations?

If you have been able to locate even ONE expert witness report analyst who agrees with the "missile witnesses" allegations of the tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists, please provide us with his/her name and a reference source URL.

ex·pert (kspûrt) n. A person with a high degree of skill in or knowledge of a certain subject.

[thatstan]

To: thatstan; Criminal Number 18F Why don't you wait until NTSB releases their findings and then you can pick it apart and submit your theories during the public comment portion of the investigation?

That could be awhile. I've waited 5 1/2 years already and an investigation hasn't even started yet. :-) You know, call a couple of witnesses - that sort of thing. All I've seen is witness tampering. You know, coverup.

Incidentally, NTSB reports only to Congress so the chances of a coverup are basically nil and none. The White House has no influence on them and if it was an attempted coverup by the Clintonistas, dont't you think the Republican majority Congress (at the time) would be jumping up and down and frothing at the mouth?

Now that's funny! (Insert at end of sentence 1, after 'them' and at end of paragraph). Just get rid of the NTSB before they scare all the remaining paying passengers off.

I gotta get back to JACK AND THE BEANSTALK: The Real Story on CBS - more hardhitting investigative journalism. If I am to entertain fairy tales, like the TWA 800 'Investigation', at least they should be more believeable - like Jack and the Beanstalk. Based on Jesuit Logic, a goose can lay a golden egg, but the question is did it at altitude in this situation? I'll watch the CBS 2-hour wrapup Tuesday, but, so far, I think the golden egg bit is a crock and even the giant living in the sky is a stretch. In summary, Jack and the Beanstalk is a fairy tale - not unlike the TWA 800 'Investigation.' Simply more believeable. If anybody writes more books on TWA 800, be sure and add 'The Real Story' in the title. That'll make it true or CBS wouldn't have done it to their Jack and the Beanstalk confession.

If only the sailors could afford to speak.

[SBeck]

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about and your tone is rude and obnoxious. I wouldn't deign to even try to have a civil, let alone enlightening, conversation with someone of your stature.

Take your arrogant self-righteousness back to usenet and Yahoo.

[barf]

Strange that those who support the government lies tend to overblow their hysteria toward those who point out weird parts of the NTSB report. I didn't write the NTSB report. Get that through your head. I am only pointing out what the report contains. The government employees or shills wrote the report. Not me. If the report writers are the wonderful people that you claim that they are, ask them to not write all of those 'lies' which you disagree with.

[SBeck]

Like the folks who claim that man did not land on the moon, you point out minutae and expect folks to agree with it. Sorry, for a supposed engineer you sure have lost a lot of your analytic skills.

If you seriously believe that you have more expertise and insight than a $100,000,000 investigation can produce then their are several psychiatrists that I can recommend. Relying on half-baked assumptions and bloviating on about kinetic energy impacts is not scientific investigation and I would only expect it out of mediocre individuals.

[barf]

Reference thatstan. When your sons or daughters go off to war, be thankful that stan spent his life analysing the reliability of the toys that your kids may play with when their lives are on the line. His sarcasm is justified. Our media has failed us and no longer backs up the 1st Amendment to our Constitution. Our fourth estate is in left field looking for coins, not the truth.

[barf]

I have no idea as to what you eat for breakfast, but I would advise you to switch brands. KKV's have been around since 1995 and it is feasible that a test would include one. What do you think that our tests in the Pacific use? An accurate missile does not need an exploding warhead. The one that hit TWA800 left only a cloud of chaff to mark its intercept. Modern chaff is designed to linger for a half hour to radar paint the results of a test. It is very light, hair like in lengths of 0.8 to 1.6 inches. Its latent heat from its mortar firing caused the TWA800 chaff to rise approximately 700 to 1,100 feet above the point of impact. When WHPS Mike McCurry stated that the 'glitter' reflected radar, he was referring to the chaff which is designed to reflect radar. Using 'glitter' would be much cheaper if it really worked. But the onboard glitter was only 0.003 inch in diameter. Please tell me what radar would be tuned for this tiny wavelength. Never hoppen, mon. The PETN which was found in the aircraft debris would be the ideal propellant for chaff due to its ultra fast burn rate. The 'dogs' must have flunked their imaginary test. How did they expect the dogs to climb the cargo bay curtain where PETN was found, not to mention the trail which passed through the passenger cabin? Dogs, like glitter, were luckily found only after they were needed to explain the facts in a fantasy way. BTW, I'll match my education and professional experience with your's any day. Being blind to the facts is easy for idiots. Just close you eyes and pretend that they go away.

[philosofy123]

The stinger missile is only about 5 feet. Moslems Taliban sold it to Moslem Iran? or some other Moslem country. Countries are allowed to bring things to their overseas embasies without submission to search. It is called the DIPLOMATIC POUCH. So, from the Iranian embassy, for example, a van can be loaded and drive to any place in the USA. Now if that is the case, what is going to stop the brief case nuclear bombs?

[philosofy123]

No, the terrorists simply are prooving to the people in the know, that we can hurt you on your own soil if you don't do what we want. Our government should have had better intelligence to monitor the moslem embasies. The more we get involved with moslem nations, the more they will learn, and steal from us, and bite us in the a--

[philosofy123]

Now that is not friendly!!! you need to wash your mouth with soap!!