What gun(s) to purchase & other gun questions.

[Carol Roberts]

My wife and I just obtained our Basic Firearm Safety Certificates. At the range we rented a Glock 9mm, S&W 38, and Sig Sauer 45. I found the recoil almost identical on each gun we tested (the wife didn't shoot the .45). About 25 years ago I shot a S&W 357 with magnum rounds and I remember the recoil was much more noticeable.

My wife is comfortable with the S&W 38 revolver and the Glock 9mm, but she only used the .38 in single action mode as she wasn't used to pulling the trigger all the way back, so the Glock 9mm will probably be best for her. She's not that strong so I'm a little concerned with her sliding the 9mm in a "situation". We'll be shooting our guns weekly for a while, but feel an urgency to make a purchase now. Comments/suggesions?

I'm interested in something bigger, perhaps Glock 10mm/357/.40/.45. According to glock the .40 caliber (Glock 23) "are so impressive that the FBI recently adopted them for issue".

From what we're told, it's not that difficult to get a concealed weapons permit where we live. So that raises the question of getting the smaller versions for concealment. Which raises accuracy, firepower, etc issues. Comments/suggesions?

BTW, when referring to Glock guns, is it best to refer to their model number or caliber?

For home protection I was also thinking of getting a 12 gauge shotgun (just gotta get close). The Winchester 1300 looks good. What's your opinion for using the 12 gauge for home protection?

My gut feel for my myself (not my wife's weapon) is the Glock 10mm and some .38 or .357 revolver for an ankle strapped backup, although I'm not too sure on brands for the revolver... Suggestions? Between the Glock 10mm, .356, .40 & .45, is the bigger the bore really the better? I guess that all depends, but what's your pick and why?

Of course there's my favorite from high school days/daze, the AR15, which I haven't really thought about since high school but always thought it would be a great weapon to help protect the neighborhood, such as in a "Red Dawn" situation.

Throwing knives are another issue... Suggestions?

Is there someplace to discuss firearm questions/issues on the net? Here?

[copycat]

My choices, for what it's worth:

Rifle: British Lee/Enfield .303 Mark I No. 5 paratrooper's carbine, with original peep sights.

2 questions...

Why would you choose the .303 round instead of the .308 version, considering the availability of ammo?

What is the difference between the paratrooper model and the "Ishapore" model, if you know. Thanks

[Marauder]

Why would you choose the .303 round instead of the .308 version, considering the availability of ammo?

I have ammo.

What is the difference between the paratrooper model and the "Ishapore" model, if you know. Thanks.

I have no idea about the Ishapore model. The paratrooper model is also referred to as the "jungle" model, issued for fighting in dense undergrowth. It's comparable to the .30-cal M1 carbine, except it's bolt-action as opposed to semi-auto.

Another reason for choosing this rifle was that it was a purchase of opportunity: A pawn shop had it for $125.00, and I figured I couldn't afford to leave it there for that price. I am aware that there are "rare" instances of this rifle, but I'm not interested in the collector aspect. It is stamped "FTR" (Factory Through Refurbish), which means it was rebuilt after the war and as such isn't a sought-after item.

[Shooter 2.5]

Since they were already shooting, I couldn't recommend a .22. I do think that novices should keep it as simple as possible. It's difficult to worry about bells and whistles when things start to go wrong. I believe that there are steps a person should take to learn how to shoot. Unfortunately, taking it step by step can mean buying one gun and then later moving up to other guns as they progress. Some people just can't afford that.

If a person is serious about learning gun self-defense, I can't recommend IDPA enough. It is the same as people who study the other martial arts. In fact, The people who want to find out what works and doesn't work should visit a match before they buy anything.

[copycat]

Thanks.

[PatrioticAmerican]

Here is an excellent unbiased overview of the type and style of guns you might think of purchasing.

It comes from tacfire.com, a Tactical Firearm Training Institute. I am not affiliated with them, but I thought that their information was worth passing on, and give them full credit for the material.

Foreward

     Suitable equipment is mandatory for all Tacfire classes.  This is both a safety issue as well as a training issue.  Broken, defective, improperly modified, or otherwise unsafe firearms have no place on the range, let alone a training class.  Unsuitable gear, such as improperly fitted holsters and magazine pouches stand in the way of getting the maximum benefit from our firearms training classes.

     The more time you waste with inferior gear, the less time you have to learn. In an effort to fully prepare you before your training class, we have prepared the following list of recommendations.  Keep in mind that we are training you to fight with a gun, not play games with firearms or shoot competitions! 

     If you are looking to purchase a firearm for self-defense to use in any of our classes, please contact us first so we can discuss your options to ensure you purchase a suitable firearm for your needs.



Firearms-General

     All firearms must be in safe working order.  All safeties and/or decockers present on the firearms must be in working condition.  Any firearm with an overridden safety, such as a 1911 with a "pinned" grip safety or a series 80 1911 with the firing pin safety removed is not acceptable.  Any modifications to firearms that make them unsafe, unreliable, difficult to manipulate, or dangerous are not acceptable.  All firearms brought to Tacfire must be reliable, strong, ergonomic and safe.  Cheap, poorly made firearms will not withstand the rigorous nature of our training programs. 

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Firearms-Pistols

     All handgun training at Tacfire is based around the semi automatic pistol therefore you need a safe, strong, reliable semi-automatic pistol.  Pistols used in our training classes must be suitable for concealed carry and self defense, therefore very large and very small pistols are not acceptable.  Minimum caliber is 9 mm parabellum (9x19).  Modern pistols manufactured by Glock, Sig Arms, H&K, Beretta, Kahr, Ruger, and Smith and Wesson are suitable.  Unsuitable pistols include Desert Eagles, small pocket pistols, old surplus pistols such as P-38's and CZ-52's, and any pistol with "competition" type modifications. 

     Pistols that utilize a magazine that is not inside the hand grip such as the Tec-9 or H&K SP89, MAC or Cobra Ray series pistols, and similar style pistols are not suitable.  1911 style pistols as well as Browning Hi Power style pistols are acceptable provided they do not have the following competition modification.  By "competition" modifications, we mean all the unnecessary add-ons and modification popular with competition shooters such as compensators, extended barrels, magazine wells, recoil buffers, magazine extensions, ultra light trigger pulls, tightly fitted actions, sharp checkering, skateboard grip tape, fragile adjustable sites, optical sites, overly extended levers and buttons and so on.  A fighting pistol must be strong, durable, free of sharp edges, snag free, reliable and field strippable without tools.  The only modifications recommended are as follows:

Fixed metal sights, preferably night sights (All pistols.)
Reliability package (1911 and Hi Powers.)
Remove sharp edges (Many pistols)

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Firearms-Shotguns

     The rigors of our shotgun training classes demand a strong, rugged, dependable shotgun.  Many sporting shotguns are not built to take the abuse a defensive shotgun receives.  All shotguns must have the capability of being manipulated with one hand, thus the Mossberg "Jungle gun" autoloader is not suitable.  The barrel must not exceed 20 inches in length and shotgun must be either a pump action or semi auto.  Ghost ring or rifle sites are highly recommended.  The forend on pump action shotguns must not extend over the action when in the rearward position.  All shotguns must be equipped with a sling.  A side saddle or butt cuff is recommended to carry extra shells.  Magazine extension tubes are acceptable.

     All shotguns must have a standard rear stock; a pistol grip only rear stock is not acceptable.  Barrel modification by Vang Comp Systems is highly recommended.  12 gauge is recommended, however our smaller stature or recoil sensitive students may use a 16 or 20 gauge providing suitable ammunition (buckshot and slug) is available.   Recommended shotguns include the  Mossberg  590A1 for pump action and the  Remington  11-87 Police autoloader.  Mossberg 500 and 590, Remington 870, Benelli Super 90 M1 and M3, Winchester 1300, and other similar shotguns are suitable providing they meet the criteria outlined above.  Unsuitable shotguns include Street Sweepers, SPAZ 12, and any other gimmicky unconventional style shotgun. 

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Firearms-Defensive Rifle

Currently Tacfire only offers defensive rifle training in the AR15 style rifle, therefore an AR15 style rifle is mandatory.  While there are many configurations of the AR15, we recommend a standard 16 or 20 inch barrel, iron sights, and a fixed stock.  Optical sights are suitable providing they are rugged enough for field use and mounted on a flat top receiver.  The ACOG by Trijicon, the Elcan, and the Aimpoint COMP M are examples of suitable optical scopes.  Optical scopes mounted on top of a standard carry handle are not recommended. 

     All rifles must be reliable and capable of shooting 500 rounds of ammunition without cleaning or malfunctioning.  Therefore, rifles with "match" chambers generally are not suitable.  We recommend standard chrome lined military style barrels such as those offered by Colt and Bushmaster.  Competition style triggers are not recommended; all rifles should have a single stage mil. spec. trigger.  Trigger jobs are permitted providing they are safe, do not cause the rifle to "double" or go full auto, and are not set to ultra low pull weights.  Triggers in the 3 to 6 pound pull range are recommended.  The safety must be functional, and left handers should look into an ambidextrous safety.  Magazines should be functional and in good condition. 

     We recommend military spec. Aluminum 20 or 30 round magazines such as those made by Colt, Adventure Line, Parsons, Sanchez, Labelle, Center Industries, and O-Kay.  Cheap steel magazines such as those made by USA or Triple K are not suitable as they are neither reliable nor functional.  The only plastic magazines acceptable are Thermolds and Orilites.  All rifles must be fitted with a sling.

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Firearms-Precision Rifle

     Precision rifle shooting is a highly specialized endeavor requiring highly specialized gear.  Standard hunting rifles and gear do not posses the accuracy, durability, maneuverability, or ruggedness necessary for this type of shooting.  There is no room for cheap or flimsy gear in this arena. 

     The recommended rifle is a bolt action built on the Remington 700 or Winchester Model 70 action, 20 to 26 inch free floating heavy barrel, and bedded in a high quality synthetic stock such as those by HS Precision or McMillian.  There are very few semi automatic rifles that can achieve the accuracy necessary for precision shooting, however if yours shoots under one MOA and is reliable, it is welcome.  Production bolt action rifles such as the Remington PSS, VS, LTR  and VSSF are acceptable providing they are capable of shooting under a minute of accuracy.  Custom precision rifles such as those made by HS Precision, NorCal Precision, Texas Brigade Armory, Chandler Brothers, and others are acceptable.  Plan on spending between $800 and $2000 for a precision rifle alone.  Precision rifles should have a trigger pull between 2 and 4 pounds.  2 ounce target triggers are not acceptable. 

     Optics must be of the highest quality and should feature mil dot reticules, 30 mm main tubes, and target style adjustable knobs.  Recommended Scopes are Leupold Vari-X 3 Long Range Tactical scopes in 3.5-10 magnification or 4.5-14 magnification, and Mark 4 with 10 power magnification.  Either 1/4 minute or BDC turrets are acceptable.  The bottom end of suitable scopes are along the line of the Leupold Vari-X 3 Tactical scope with mil dot reticules which features a one inch main tube, 3.5-10 power magnification, and 1/4 minute target turrets.    Expect to spend $450 to $1000 for the scope. 

     Just as important as the rifle and scope, are the scope mounting base and rings.  Standard hunting style rings and mounts are not sturdy enough for field use.  We recommend heavy duty steel rings and bases such as Leupold Mark 4's, MWG Tactical, Badger Ordnance, NightForce, and Atuagua Arms.  We also recommend that the bases be tapered 15-25 MOA to ensure enough scope elevation adjustment to long ranges.  Plan on spending $250-300 for rings and bases. 

     The recommended caliber is .308 Winchester due to the vast availability of match grade ammunition, its mild recoil, and long barrel life.  However, other calibers such as .223 Rem, .243, 30.06, and 300 WM are acceptable. 

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Gear-Holsters, Magazine pouches, Belts

Proper fitting gear is essential for you to gain the maximum benefit from firearms training at Tacfire.  Belts must be thick and sturdy enough to support the weight of your gear without shifting around.  Belts 1 1/2 or 1 3/4 inches wide are preferable.  Narrow dress belts are not suitable.  Recommended belts are leather gun belts such as those by  Bianchi, or nylon 5 stitch instructor belts by The Wilderness. 

Holsters should be of the highest quality leather or Kydex material and form fitted to your particular pistol.  Cheap universal nylon holsters are neither secure nor durable enough for our training program.  All holsters must be suitable for concealed carry and hold the pistol snug against the body.    Competition holsters are not permitted.  All holsters must retain the pistol securely, and be stiff enough to retain their shape when the pistol is drawn.  All holsters will be worn slightly to the rear of your strong side hip; Cross-draw, small of the back (SOB), pocket, or shoulder holsters are not permitted. 

Magazine pouches will be worn slightly behind the support side hip and must retain the magazines securely.  All holsters and magazine pouches should thread through the belt; clip on style holsters and magazine pouches are generally not secure enough.   Students who are law enforcement or armed security guards my use their "sam brown" duty belt and gear.

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Other recommended gear

To make your training with Tacfire as comfortable as possible, it is recommended that you bring the following items any Tacfire class:

Sunscreen
Knee or elbow pads
Suitable eye and ear protection
Baseball cap or other brimmed cap
Rain gear
Non-prescription pain reliever
Folding lawn chair
Shooting mat or tarp
Sturdy shoes or boots
Vest or jacket for concealment
Cooler with lunch, non-alcoholic beverages, and snacks
Backup firearm should your primary firearm break
Comfortable clothes, pants must have belt loops.

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Special note for female students

Female students sometimes face problems that male students do not.  These issues must be addressed so all students can receive the same level of training in a safe environment.  To properly and safely utilize a holster, pants with belt loops are necessary.  They should also be loose fitting  for comfort and mobility and have pockets to hold spare ammo and magazines.  Sweat or stretch pants just won't work. 

Shirts should be of a crew neck design; V neck shirts allow hot brass to go down the front of your shirt causing very uncomfortable burns.  Bras worn during rifle or shotgun classes must not have plastic or metal adjustment buckles in front of your shoulders.  The recoil of the rifle or shotgun will drive the buckle into your shoulder causing unnecessary cuts, pain, or bruising. 

Hairstyle must permit the wearing of a baseball cap or other brimmed hat.  Long hair should be tied up to keep it out of your face and eyes. 

Jewelry, especially long dangling earrings and large rings can be a hindrance to shooting a firearm safely.  Please secure all personal property before beginning training.  Fingernails should be as short as possible; long fingernails make holding and manipulating a firearm difficult. 

Most holsters are designed for men, and may be uncomfortable for some women.  Most major holster manufactures make models that feature an offset drop that is specifically designed to suite women. 

[PoorMuttly]

Attending an IDPA is an excellent idea. It is founded on the right, practical philosophy. Also, I wish I had started with a .22 handgun, and not only rifles, which my Dad started me shooting at the range when I was very young. A BOLT action rifle with iron sights. True, it did have a "bananna clip," but we used .22 longs, and I learned what to do. I loved it. I now shoot .458s with ease. What fun!

[Aric2000]

I am glad that you figured out what you wanted to buy and are buying them. The more responsible, armed citizens there are the safer I feel.

Just for fun, I will tell you what I carry, I live in Oregon and have CWP for Oregon, and the CWP for Washington State. I carry at ALL times.

When I first got my CWP, I carried a small Phoenix Armes .22, little gun, small caliber, and it was easily concealable. It was also CHEAP!!! It has never misfired, but the fact is that it has little stopping power, it is a shoot and hope you hit something vital type gun.

I went to my local gun dealer and told him that I wanted a bigger caliber, and due to my size and budget constraints, he sold me a CZ-70 .32 caliber handgun. This is now my carry choice weapon. It has the stopping power that I need, has NEVER misfired, and it is a ball to shoot. Doesn't hurt that I have a 2 1/2 inch shot group at 50 yards with it. Not bad for a handgun.

My next purchase will be a 12 gauge shotgun for home defense, and am looking at a number that have been named on this thread. The gun shop down the street specializes in shotguns, so will probably have a major discussion with him, and probably buy one from him too.

Welcome to the society of citizens, I believe that no man or woman should be truly called a citizen until they take thier personal security into thier own hands. Good for you, thank you for becoming a citizen!! :)

[Myrddin]

I'm partial to the S&W 686+ in 4 inch. It's a 7 shot .357 mag in stainless steel. The 4" length makes it easy to get good leather. My wife and I each have one and punch 200 to 300 rounds per week of 38SPL with absolute reliability at the range. After a trip to the range, it gets a thorough cleaning and 7 rounds of Federal .357 mag Hydra Shok.

The Glock 23C (40 S&W) is pretty reliable and knocks down the steel silhouettes consistently when the 38SPL requires a real precise hit (using 165 gr 40 S&W). The compensator makes for quick follow up shots, but it also takes a firm grip for reliable cycling.

I reload all my 38SPL because I can always find the brass. The brass on a semi-auto goes flying all over the place. Annoying if you plan to reload.

[Shooter 2.5]

I've heard complaints about gun ranges that won't let you shoot fast or from the draw and here is the match director showing us how it's done from last weeks match. The people who run IDPA matches must lay awake all night long thinking of weird and unusual scenarios. I found out that it's difficult to draw when you're flat on your back. My time for drawing, shooting the three targets twice, reloading and then shooting the next three targets twice was 13.33 with no misses out of the A zone. PRACTICE. PRACTICE. PRACTICE.

[PoorMuttly]

Better to first experience such things in an easy and safe environment, taking time to think about it. Many do not get this luxury! I whole-heartedly recommend it!

[DonPaulJones]

For your wife, I highly recommend a Taurus Model 911 (9mm). It is an extremely compact pistol, easy to rack the slide (my wife is unable to rack many slides on semi-autos, except for the Taurus 911, she had NO problem at all). The Taurus 911 comes with a steel 10-round magazine and is the perfect size and weight for female concealed carry. They also come in Titanium for lesser weight...

If you do your research on pistol comparisons (accuracy, design, dependability), you will find that Taurus is as accurate as a Glock but costs quite a bit less and Taurus pistols come with a lifetime (of the pistol, NOT the owner) warranty.

As for shotguns, I LOVE my Winchester Model 1300. Pump action, holds 8 2&3/4 inch rounds (7 3 inch rounds). If I could have only one long gun or shotgun, I would go with the Winchester Model 1300. (Also comes in a 7/6 round marine version that is highly resistant of corosion)

For yourself, it all depends on how much you want to pay, but I would suggest that you also look into the Millenium line of Taurus' (the Model 911 is one of them). They have all of the good calibers, .45, .40, etc)

Check them out at www.taurususa.com...

[Squantos]

Just a hint but if your down to just a knife why would you throw it anywhere ? As to handguns, if you and your wife will share this sidearm then get what the weaker of you two can handle. If you or she has trouble pulling back a slide because of jewelry, fingernails, arthritic problems, age , etc etc then consider a revolver. If strenght is not a factor then by all means a quality semi auto is a good choice.

If caliber bothers either of you then select a common caliber that you can control. Over my 30 years of carry I have found that hitting your target is primary, stopping power is secondary. If you can hit a target at 7 yards fast and accurate with a .22 and miss that same target when using a 45 acp then what would you really want to have in a pinch when you need it.

Your choice of a 12 gauge for home is very good . Your selection of a handgun is what "you" can make hits with fast and furious is a self defense manner which is all inclusive of fear, panic, doubt,motor skills and eventually "law" but IMHO should never include medical personal for you and yours.

Good Luck with your choice, practice, practice , practice and Stay Safe......

Pocat or George,.... you have anything to add to this that can help ??

[Lurker]

Both versions are available here

I have an Ishapore in 7.62 Nato, and I love it.

Be prepared for a lot of work cleaning it up though. It looked like mine had been packed in cosmoline since the day it was made.

It does however, shoot like a dream.

Regards,

L

[DonPaulJones]

Oops! In my earlier discussion, I used the Taurus Model 911 when I meant to say the Taurus Model PT-111!! Sorry!

[M Kehoe]

A little of topic, but like myself, do you use your real name as a handle?

If you are the Carol Roberts I'm thinking of, I saw you punching out chads in the re-re-recount in PBC FL.

Probably not huh?

5.56mm

[Shooter 2.5]

" If you can hit a target at 7 yards fast and accurate with a .22 and miss that same target when using a 45 acp then what would you really want to have in a pinch when you need it."

Answer: A second shot with the .45acp. :^)

[Squantos]

A 105mm beehive round if I get a real choice ;o)

Stay Safe !!

[nancetc]

I just bought a Kel-Tec P-11 today for my conceal and carry weapon.

[nancetc]

Kahr has a really nice weight for concealed...but when it came to price I went with Kel-Tec but I'll probably get a Kahr next year.

[Marauder]

I like the Kel-Tec - very concealable, and even though there's no safety, the trigger pull is so long that it's safe to carry with a round chambered.