The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
TNS Archives

[malakhi]

Yeah but they were wrong, Jesus is not God, my faith is runied, I'm going back to smoking dope.

Say, Mack, suppose that Jesus was not the result of a virgin birth. Would that, in your mind, really be enough to take away your faith in his divinity?

[malakhi]

angelo I think I'm begining to see what you mean in your posts, but I now have doubt about the whole Bible, maybe it is all just a fable, you may have converted me too far.

Aside from the fact that you are pulling my leg ;o) I don't know why the fact that a translation was in error would destroy your faith in scripture. You would agree that of the many translations out there, some are in error, and some are in serious error? The Catholics don't lose their faith in the bible simply because modern translations don't agree with the Douay-Rheims about the translation of kecharitomene ("full of grace" vs. "favored one"). Surely your faith is no less than theirs?

[malakhi]

Thanks Mom.

[malakhi]

Well done, JH!

[malakhi]

Hi gideon, welcome to The Neverending Story. I notice that you are replying to #14 on this thread. Seeing that we are now well over 30,000, you might want to skip ahead to today's posts, skim along a bit, and then jump in with whatever comments you have. Believe me, eventually every topic we covered before will be repeated! ;o)

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Say, Mack, suppose that Jesus was not the result of a virgin birth. Would that, in your mind, really be enough to take away your faith in his divinity?

I'm in deep pain over it.

BigMack

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Surely your faith is no less than theirs?

I can't talk about it now.

BigMack

[malakhi]

Where again, is your record of fulfillment before this one?

Right there in Isaiah. Let's go through this one step at a time.

1. To whom is the prophecy made? King Ahaz.

Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz, [11] "Ask a sign of the LORD your God; let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven." (Isaiah 7:10-11)

2. What does the prophecy pertain to? The failure of the armies of Syria and Israel to defeat Judah.

In the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, son of Uzzi'ah, king of Judah, Rezin the king of Syria and Pekah the son of Remali'ah the king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to wage war against it, but they could not conquer it...
[7] thus says the Lord GOD: It shall not stand, and it shall not come to pass. (Isaiah 7:1,7)

3. What was the purpose of the prophecy? To calm the fears and strengthen the resolve of Judah.

[2] When the house of David was told, "Syria is in league with E'phraim," his heart and the heart of his people shook as the trees of the forest shake before the wind.
[3] And the LORD said to Isaiah, "Go forth to meet Ahaz, you and She'ar-jash'ub your son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool on the highway to the Fuller's Field,
[4] and say to him, `Take heed, be quiet, do not fear, and do not let your heart be faint because of these two smoldering stumps of firebrands, at the fierce anger of Rezin and Syria and the son of Remali'ah.
[5] Because Syria, with E'phraim and the son of Remali'ah, has devised evil against you, saying,
[6] "Let us go up against Judah and terrify it, and let us conquer it for ourselves, and set up the son of Ta'be-el as king in the midst of it," (Isaiah 7:2-6)

4. When would the prophecy be fulfilled? Very soon!

For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted. (Isaiah 7:16)

So, Ahaz, King of Judah, fears the invaders. God sends Isaiah to reassure him that he will prevail. Ahaz is reluctant to ask for a sign, so God tells him that before a particular child, soon to be born of a woman apparently known to both Isaiah and Ahaz, is old enough to know the difference between good and evil, Judah will prevail in its war with Syria and the northern kingdom. Furthermore, this will usher in a period of peace and prosperity.

Now, when do we actually see this prophecy fulfilled?

And I went to the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son...
Behold, I and the children whom the LORD has given me are signs and portents in Israel from the LORD of hosts (Isaiah 8:3,18)

All of these events--the birth of the child of the young woman, the war with Syria and the northern kingdom, and the final victory of Judah over its foes--took place within several years of Isaiah's prophecy. Thus, "before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good", the prophecy had been fulfilled.

[Pelayo]

Orthodox scholars generally view the later version as an attempt on St. Cyprian's part to make clear his original intent after early partisans of an inflated view of Roman primacy misused his earlier version.

I have a question. Do you believe the letter "De Unitate" St. Cyprian sent to Rome was a rewrite by the author or a Roman forgery? Also if Papal Primacy was clamed by the popes at the time, then on what authority did the anti-pope Novitian (who was contemporary with Cyprian) believe he could appoint new Bishops all over the Empire against the true pope St. Cornelius? Anti-pope or not, he clamed the authority of pope in a time you believe no such authority was clamed.

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

So the land of the two kings was deserted and the area's were desolate before this child of the prophetess was old enough to know evil?

Isaiah 7:16 For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted. 17 The LORD will bring upon you and upon your people and upon your father's house such days as have not come since the day that E'phraim departed from Judah--the king of Assyria."

Oh, this son of the prophetess was named Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz. Not "God with us" (Emmanuel).

Isaiah 8:3 And I went to the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son. Then the LORD said to me, "Call his name Ma'her-shal'al-hash-baz;
Jesus is still called "God with us" (Emmanuel) to this day!!

Oh yea, and I guess after the Assyrians conquered the lands, this son of the prophetess was the one who fulfilled this:

Isaiah 9:but in the latter time he will make glorious the way of the sea, the land beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles. 2 The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, thou hast increased its joy; they rejoice before thee as with joy at the harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For the yoke of his burden, and the staff for his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, thou hast broken as on the day of Mid'ian. 5 For every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire. 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.

Yep, the prophetess son brought "light" to the Gentiles, there was no end to his government and peace. Oh yea, he reigns on the throne of David forever, this son of the prophetess. (Christ does through His church. He has influenced more than any one man or idea in history.

The prophetess son was a sign of the defeat of Assyria before he could say "My father." He had nothing to do with the Chapter 7 "Immanuel" prophecy which was to be fulfilled AFTER the land of Israel and Syria were forsaken by it's kings.

I suppose Northern Israel was forsaken by the time of the Prophetess' son?

Angelo, you took these prophecies so out of context, I doubt you really read them.

[malakhi]

Jesus is still called "God with us" (Emmanuel) to this day!!

Isaiah says:

Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el.

"A young woman" is the subject of the sentence. The structure of the sentence indicates that it is the "young woman" who "shall call his name Immanuel". Now, Isaiah does mention this name again in chapter 8:

and it will sweep on into Judah, it will overflow and pass on, reaching even to the neck; and its outspread wings will fill the breadth of your land, O Imman'u-el."

So we do see indication of someone being called this name during the time of Ahaz, and after the prophecy.

Now, please point out for me where, precisely, in the Christian scriptures Jesus is ever named or even called Immanuel by his mother or anyone else.

Angelo, you took these prophecies so out of context, I doubt you really read them.

I don't mean to be derisive, Nate, but considering the weight your interpretations of scripture hold in this discussion, I cannot really take this comment as criticism.

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

ADAM Photos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He's doin great. Eating 25 CC's of milk. Poopin it all out and growin. Over 3 lbs!!
My Family!

[RnMomof7]

AWESOME

he is something..you guys keep having beautiful babs..

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

Now, please point out for me where, precisely, in the Christian scriptures Jesus is ever named or even called Immanuel by his mother or anyone else.

Jesus is always called God with us (Immanuel/Emmanuel). His friends, the Apostles refer to Christ as God all throughout the New Testament.

You fail your own test. The boy of the prophetess was not being called Immanuel in 8. Verse 8 calls it Immanuels land. When did Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz ever rule over Judah?

No, God owned the land of Judah. So did "God with us" (Immanuel/Emmanuel).
Hint: Jesus!

I don't mean to be derisive, Nate, but considering the weight your interpretations of scripture hold in this discussion, I cannot really take this comment as criticism.

Not offended here.
but I still would believe a practicing Jew, with much knowledge of Christian scripture, would be able to see Christ's "coming in the clouds" references to the second coming as being fulfilled during 70 AD. Being that YOUR scriptures have God coming in the clouds (as shikinah glory, as His chariot in judgment, etc) refering always to judgment and deliverance/salvation.

Funny how you side with their lack of knowledge of "clouds", "stars falling", "earth haken", "day of the Lord" all throughout YOUR Old Testament prophecies always fulfilled by an empirical army conquering whomever was being prophesied against.

[malakhi]

Awesome pictures, Nate! Thanks for sharing them.

Jesus is always called God with us (Immanuel/Emmanuel).

Great! Then it should be no problem at all for you to cite these passages for me (chapter and verse, please). I eagerly await your reply.

[saradippity]

Words are not adequate to express how grateful I am for that clear and truthful letter you wrote. It makes me happy to live in a world with people like you and may God bless you and hold you in the palm of His hand.

How are you and Mrs.JH doing with your "traditional" morning walk?

I am going to print out your letter and give it to a couple of my NC friends who have asked for a sample. I've tried to come up with something myself but I am too close and in addition tend to get overwordy and a little vicious.Thanks again!!

[Elsie]

Matthew 1:22-25
22. All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:
23. "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."

Great! Then it should be no problem at all for you to cite these passages for me (chapter and verse, please). I eagerly await your reply.

---

But first...... "Are there any OT prophecies yet to be fulfilled????"

I thought so.

---

Well, let ME just fulfill one for you so that you can get over it!

Elsie, "The Lord that I serve, I call Him 'Immanuel'."

There, ya happy now?

All the rest of you Christian posters - do the same - so that the "they" portion will satisfy Angelo.

---

 

NIV Matthew 1:22-25
 22.  All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:
 23.  "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."
 24.  When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife.
 25.  But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

 

 

NIV Matthew 27:11
 11.  Meanwhile Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?"   "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.

 

 

NIV Matthew 27:22
 22.  "What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called Christ?" Pilate asked.   They all answered, "Crucify him!"

 

 

NIV Mark 15:1-2
 1.  Very early in the morning, the chief priests, with the elders, the teachers of the law and the whole Sanhedrin, reached a decision. They bound Jesus, led him away and handed him over to Pilate.
 2.  "Are you the king of the Jews?" asked Pilate.   "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.

 

 

NIV Mark 15:18
 18.  And they began to call out to him, "Hail, king of the Jews!"

 

 

NIV Luke 22:70
 70.  They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?"   He replied, "You are right in saying I am."

 

 

NIV Luke 23:3
 3.  So Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the king of the Jews?"   "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. ]

 

 

NIV Luke 23:8
 8.  When Herod saw Jesus, he was greatly pleased, because for a long time he had been wanting to see him. From what he had heard about him, he hoped to see him perform some miracle.

 

 

NIV Luke 23:38
 38.  There was a written notice above him, which read: THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

 

 

NIV John 18:37
 37.  "You are a king, then!" said Pilate.   Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

 

 

NIV John 19:14-22
 14.  It was the day of Preparation of Passover Week, about the sixth hour.   "Here is your king," Pilate said to the Jews.
 15.  But they shouted, "Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!"   "Shall I crucify your king?" Pilate asked.   "We have no king but Caesar," the chief priests answered.
 16.  Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified.   So the soldiers took charge of Jesus.
 17.  Carrying his own cross, he went out to the place of the Skull (which in Aramaic is called Golgotha).
 18.  Here they crucified him, and with him two others--one on each side and Jesus in the middle.
 19.  Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read: JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
 20.  Many of the Jews read this sign, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek.
 21.  The chief priests of the Jews protested to Pilate, "Do not write `The King of the Jews,' but that this man claimed to be king of the Jews."
 22.  Pilate answered, "What I have written, I have written."

[vmatt]

Might be a good idea to let everyone know from where this cut and paste comes from.

Thank you and you are probably right, I should. But I am not going to get into a war of historians with the likes of people who would make such statements as truth based on uninspired men of old with their own axes to grind. The word of God is its own interpreter and I have been avoiding these lengthy discussions of what some old guy or saint or pope said and I'm sick of reading it. I will stick to the word of God and let my post speak for itself. Once again like the dog who gets his nose shoved in its own feces, I smell the stink of error everywhere here as in the churches and no one is really searching for truth but busy defending the errors of old. Thank you, Christians, for proving once again that it will require divine intervention to again establish something worthy of Jesus Christ.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

You have a lovely family. So glad Adam is doing great.:)

Becky

[al_c]

Not the one I was thinking of, but very funny. :o)