The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
TNS Archives

[SoothingDave]

See the answer given by hopefulpilgrim #1007. This is excellent.

See my 1013 response to hopefulpilgrim.

Obviously we feel some need to clarify, classify, embellish the Word, in order to further each other's understanding. Or else we wouldn't be here. Or all we would do is swap Scripture quotes.

If I discover 2 + 2 = 4 spiritually I am apparently forbidden to tell anyone. They need to learn 2+2+=4 on their own. Each generation needs to learn 2+2=4.

That's great except nobody ever gets to discover calculus.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

Not a bad question for a kid. If you're still asking it now, you just must not have bothered checking for the answer. This is willful ignorance.

Are you referring to me or the early Church Fathers who never questioned that she had other children.

I did check for the answer. I was told to shut up. Are you hard of hearing?

I admit I was prompted to ask that question by some of my Protestant friends. The Bible in my home was to record births and deaths. It was never read.

[OLD REGGIE]

We are going in circles on the "learning" question. I agree partially with what you say but am suspicious of your "apologetics" techniques. (Do you wonder why?)

St. Augustine has addressed the essential question:

Objection: It would seem that it is unsuitable for the articles of faith to be embodied in a creed. Because Holy Writ is the rule of faith, to which no addition or subtraction can lawfully be made, since it is written (Deut. 4:2): "You shall not add to the word that I speak to you, neither shall you take away from it." Therefore it was unlawful to make a creed as a rule of faith, after Holy Writ had once been published.

Reply: The truth of faith is contained in Holy Writ, diffusely, under various modes of expression, and sometimes obscurely, so that, in order to gather the truth of faith from Holy Writ, one needs long study and practice, which are unattainable by all those who require to know the truth of faith, many of whom have no time for study, being busy with other affairs. And so it was necessary to gather together a clear summary from the sayings of Holy Writ, to be proposed to the belief of all. This indeed was no addition to Holy Writ, but something gathered from it.
(Summa Theologica, Second Part of the Second Part, Question 1, Article 9)
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I have no intention of continuing the semantics chase. I won't fight with St. Augustine. After all, he still insists on the primacy of Scripture (Sola Scriptura).

[RobbyS]

My, you guys have marched on. Well, my history tells me that Heretics are seldom the innocent lambs as portrayed. For instance, the Donatists in North Africa had the same "attitude" as bin Laden, and it is impossible to understand the development of St. Augustine's theology without understanding his frustration with this sect. In the beginning he tried reason and in return saw his priests murdered and his churches burned. Finally, grudgingly and in defence of his flock, to turned to the government for protection. If Augustine 's moved toward Predestination was prompted by his experience, which showed him that the Devil was loose in the world and had many followers.

The Albi, over whom liberals and Protestants shed so many tears were equally intractable. By the time of Monfort's Crusade, they controlled 1000 towns in France and if their "Perfects" were noncombatants, the many nobles who supported them certainly were not. How would you react if the Muslims took over the State of Mississippi and began closing the Federal Courts? Such people are not harmless. To be sure, Religious war almost inevitable leads to slaughter, including ther slaughter of the harmless and helpless, and to the pernicious doctrine of the Inquisition that it is right to kill the body in order to save the soul. On the other hand, as the movie "Dead Man Walking" shows, it is sometimes the case that a man who faces execution will find the need to re-examine the state of his soul and repent. Even McVeigh may have reached that point.

[SoothingDave]

We are going in circles on the "learning" question. I agree partially with what you say but am suspicious of your "apologetics" techniques. (Do you wonder why?)

Yes I do.

St. Augustine has addressed the essential question:

And so it was necessary to gather together a clear summary from the sayings of Holy Writ, to be proposed to the belief of all. This indeed was no addition to Holy Writ, but something gathered from it.

I can't argue with that. A summary of what is contained in Scripture is a creed.

I have no intention of continuing the semantics chase. I won't fight with St. Augustine. After all, he still insists on the primacy of Scripture (Sola Scriptura).

Properly understood, yes. But a summary implies the existence of a summarizer.

SD

[RobbyS]

#1064 Where did you get the idea that ther Church does not believe in the primacy of Scripture? We simply say that the Holy Tradition and Scripture are a seamless whole and doctrine does not contradict Scripture.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

We simply say that the Holy Tradition and Scripture are a seamless whole and doctrine does not contradict Scripture.

You can say it all ya want. I can say I'm the president of the United States.

[RobbyS]

The Bible in my home was to record births and deaths. It was never read. The one in mine was! But of course I knew where the key to the lock was! :-)

[malakhi]

You can say it all ya want. I can say I'm the president of the United States.

Mr. President, you've been spending entirely too much time freeping. Its time to get back to the work the 'Merkun People hired you to do.

[RobbyS]

I can say I'm the president of the United States.

And if you are George W. Bush, it's true!

[RobbyS]

Like your reply better!

[JHavard]

I'm the president of the United States.

Steven, I guess that means you won't be wanting your old job back as "mini-pope"?

I hope you don't mind me just using part of your quote, it's a new thing that allend started, and I think it could turn out to be kinda fun.

Feel free to try it yourself anytime. +>=:-)

[Pelayo]

And now learned colleagues we see Havoc for what he is, not only will he not explain to me WHY photos don't count as images, but he must attack us Catholics for using logic and reason! Following in the footsteps of the man who started all this nonsense to begin with, Martin Luther, who called reason "the most dangerous harlot the Devil has" (qtd in Janssen's History of the German People VI)

The pharisees applied logic and reason and had the OT laws all screwed up - God fired 'em for it. Yet here you sit tellin us by inferrance that their method is the preferred method. If you were arguing "preferred if you want to get fired" I'd say you're right.

I'm also quite aware of the fact that you'll use a linen wool jacket argument based in reason as an excuse

Something that you try to make true with logic does not trump that which already is true through the spirit.

Not quite of course, but good try. The Pharisees would not listen to reason, they were blinded by a fear, not just of losing there authority, but of being wrong. We all know that no one who uses reason and logic can deny the truth when it is shown to him, or deny being wrong when he is so proven. Reason and Logic are not opposed to God. Reason and Logic are of God Himself. There is no actual misuse of reason/logic (now wait just a minute what did I just say?) only a failing to use them. The wisdom of man, spoken of in the Bible was not the wisdom of the true Philosopher, the wisdom decried in the Bible was anti-wisdom, anti-reason, and anti-logic. It is true that they were what was in vogue when the Bible was written, and it is true that they are making a comeback (have been since the beginning of the modern age) with Sophism, and Hedonism. But this is not wisdom, wisdom is truth, wisdom is what God gives us to know Him. All this (anti-wisdom) is/are the lies of the Devil which is masquerading as "worked out truth". It was the wisdom of the OT times to sacrifice a Child to stave off earthquake, this is the anti-wisdom I speak of. Where was the logic and reason in such behavior? No where! Why because it wasn't real wisdom, real wisdom requires Logic and Reason to explain the proverbial WHY. By no logic or reason does one prove that such a sacrifice will stop earthquakes. Quite the contrary, logic and reason prove the opposite.

How, I ask you does one argue with a person who denies any use of logic? Without logic there are no absolutes, without logic there is no way to prove anything. And, how can one argue with a person who denies reason? Without reason there is no common framer for argument, without reason there can be no debate.

The answer is: I can't argue with that person, you see, I can never prove that person wrong no matter what. And, he could never prove me wrong because he would have to use logic and appeal to my reason. No doubt I will be accused of going against God's word, or just proving his point by my response(that's rich!), or he may just ignore me.

[OLD REGGIE]

Check here.

I checked there and found this:

© 1996 Catholic Answers, Inc. This text may be downloaded or printed out for private reading, but it may not be uploaded to another Internet site or published, electronically or otherwise, without express written permission from the copyright holder. Last modified May 25, 1996.

So much for objectivity.

Now lets check this:

Colossains 4: 9 and with him Ones'imus, the faithful and beloved brother, who is one of yourselves. They will tell you of everything that has taken place here.

10 Aristar'chus my fellow prisoner greets you, and Mark the cousin of Barnabas (concerning whom you have received instructions--if he comes to you, receive him),

11 and Jesus who is called Justus. These are the only men of the circumcision among my fellow workers for the kingdom of God, and they have been a comfort to me.

No difficulty in distinguishing "brother" and "cousin".
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Further, there are approximately 140+ references to Brother in the NT and 185+ references to Brethren in the NT. There is no difficulty in determing the usage.
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Consider this:

Galatians 1 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days.
19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother.
20 (In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!)
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And this:

Matthew 13
53 And when Jesus had finished these parables, he went away from there,
54 and coming to his own country he taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, "Where did this man get this wisdom and these mighty works?
55 Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?
56 And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all this?"

Is this confusing?
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Finally, consider this:

Cyril of Jerusalem writes:

"But now is Christ risen from the dead, the first fruits of them that are asleep; - And He was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve; (for if thou believe not the one witness, thou hast twelve witnesses;) then He was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; (if they disbelieve the twelve, let them admit the five hundred;) after that He was seen of JAMES, HIS OWN BROTHER, and first Bishop of this diocese. Seeing then that such a Bishop originally saw Christ Jesus when risen, do not thou, his disciple, disbelieve him. But thou sayest that His brother James was a partial witness; afterwards He was seen also of me Paul, His enemy; and what testimony is doubted, when an enemy proclaims it? "I, who was before a persecutor, now preach the glad tidings of the Resurrection." (Philip Schaff, Ed., "The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers," Vol. 7, S. Cyril, Archibishop of Jerusalem, "Lecture 14" P. 269) (Emphasis not in original)

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For also JAMES, THE BROTHER, ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, OF CHRIST OUR GOD, to whom the throne of the church of Jerusalem first was entrusted, and Basil, the Archbishop of the Church of Caesarea, whose glory has spread through all the world, when they delivered to us directions for the mystical sacrifice in writing, declared that the holy chalice is consecrated in the Divine Liturgy with water and wine. And the holy Fathers who assembled at Carthage provided in these express terms: "That in the holy Mysteries nothing besides the body and blood of the Lord be offered, as the Lord himself laid down, that is bread and wine mixed with water." Therefore if any bishop or presbyter shall not perform the holy action according to what has been handed down by the Apostles, and shall not offer the sacrifice with wine mixed with water, let him be deposed, as imperfectly shewing forth the mystery and innovating on the things which have been handed down " (Philip Schaff, Ed., "The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers," 2nd Series, Vol. 14; "The Seven Ecumenical Councils of the Undivided Church," The Canons of the Council in Trullo; Often Called The Quinisext Council, A.D. 692, Canon 32, p.716) (Emphasis not in original)
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Do you still have trouble with Brother, Brethren, and Cousin.

Hint: Comparing usage to the Old Testament is not valid. Catholic Answers is not noted for either objectivity or accuracy.

[dadwags]

#1051
"...breach the barrier between the physical and spiritual in violation of God's law ...."
Which law is that ? (Chapter and verse) The Law as given to Havoc ?

[dadwags]

#1056
You can come back any time, Reggie, we'll keep a light on for you .

[OLD REGGIE]

#1064 Where did you get the idea that ther Church does not believe in the primacy of Scripture? We simply say that the Holy Tradition and Scripture are a seamless whole and doctrine does not contradict Scripture.
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The Church speaks of the three legged stool - Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium. It must be hard to sit on because Scripture surely is the shortest leg.

[SoothingDave]

Do you still have trouble with Brother, Brethren, and Cousin.

Yeah, do you not think "brother according to the flesh" could refer to a cousin or half-brother? Just because you find the word translated as "brother" in English doesn't mean squat.

Hint: Comparing usage to the Old Testament is not valid.

Chapter and verse please? (Or so says you.)

Catholic Answers is not noted for either objectivity or accuracy.

We know that you don't trust Catholic sources and vice versa. It doesn't bear repeating. Does anybody remember exactly what Catholic Answers' big sin was anyway?

SD