The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[dadwags]

#921
The verses you cite were spoken to the Apostles, who became the Magisterium . the Council in Jerusalem, reported in Acts was an example of the magisterium at work.

[The_Reader_David]

If you believe that a pious Orthodox Christian would resort to psychics, you are either sadly misinformed or extrordinary obtuse. The fact that you misdefine requests for the intercessions of those, who, having finished the course of this earthly life, are yet alive in Christ as "spiritism" or "necromancy" suggest the latter.

I see very little point in continuing to discuss this matter, as you have set up your judgement of the meaning of the Holy Scriptures in translation as superior to both sober textual analysis of the original text and the understanding of the Fathers of the Church. If your understanding is that lofty in scope and depth, surely my words will not sway you.

Doubtless you fancy that the Holy Spirit is providing your insight. I know that the Holy Spirit provided the insights of the Holy Fathers (and I do not mean the Popes by that), and am obedient to their understanding of the text of Holy Scripture, and thus am able to test my understanding against theirs. You are obedient to an interpretation provided by a spirit you are unable to test having nothing but that spirit and the text of Scripture it is interpreting.

[Havoc]

Didn't they annoint sick people with oil? Didn't Christ mix his saliva with dirt to heal a blind man? didn't someone grab His cloak and get healed?

The relevance of which you have no understanding. (1) What was the significance of mixing Christ's saliva with dird? (2) What is the significance of annointing with oil and where did it originate? (3) Did the cloak heal anyone or was it the spirit of God emanating from the Lord?

[dadwags]

#955
Bass, I think you dodged the question .SD's question wasn't pitching for any one church, just asking about how an individual's awareness or understanding of a truth develops over time, IMVHO.

[OLD REGGIE]

A community understanding certainly can be transmitted over the generations. If we take as axiomatic that which our grandparents struggled to prove true, we can then work on to higher understanding. Truth does not cease to be true with time.
------------------------------------------------------------

But-but-but folk tales grow with time, old wives tales grow with time. Are they necessarily enlightening?

[SoothingDave]

The relevance of which you have no understanding.

I know that they mean that our God doesn't avoid using matter in acheiving healing or miracles or in using His power. Which you seem to be saying in scoffing at crosses or holy water as mere "symbols."

(1) What was the significance of mixing Christ's saliva with dird?

I'm sure you'll tell me. God of course breathed life into dirt originally so you can see him using dirt again to heal. Christ didn't just say "you are healed," he made a point to use matter. He didn't eschew it like you do.

(2) What is the significance of annointing with oil and where did it originate?

The annointing of the kings and priests in the Old Testament. To be annointed was God's sign of protection or selection of the person annointed.

(3) Did the cloak heal anyone or was it the spirit of God emanating from the Lord?

Did the mud heal or was it something to do with Christ? Did the oils heal or did it have something to do with faith and prayer? I recognize the source of healing, I'm not dumb. But you don't recognize that God does indeed use matter.

SD

[conservonator]

Did you expect I'd agree. All necessary understanding was available immediately.

Thousands of denominations and a WIDE variety of dogmas would suggest otherwise.

[SoothingDave]

But-but-but folk tales grow with time, old wives tales grow with time. Are they necessarily enlightening?

So because of that you would wish to throw away the collective wisdom of civilization? Go back to living just on your own wits and avoid any knowledge that has been passed down?

I said that if we build on truth, truth remains true. If we build more truth on top of that, the original truth is still true, as is the new understanding of the truth. Obviously if we build up fallacy or "wives tales" they are not truth.

Unless you grew up in a vacuum you have been affected by history, including the history of the Church and the wisdom held there.

SD

[al_c]

Did the cloak heal anyone or was it the spirit of God emanating from the Lord?

Actually, it was the woman's faith.

[Havoc]

However, praying to Saints, asking them to intercede with God on our behalf is ONE WAY communication

Right - you of your own will attempting to breach the barrier between the physical and the spiritual in violation of God's law.

[dadwags]

#1007
Well said, Pilgrim. Right on!

[Havoc]

If something is true by revelation or true by deduction isn't it still true?

Something that you try to make true with logic does not trump that which already is true through the spirit. If the Bible says no talking to the dead, artful words don't make it true that you are allowed to anyway.

[conservonator]

Our differences are not salvation matters, they are personal preference matters, that have everything to do with personality, and nothing to do with salvation.

I imagine a Calvinist and a Nazarene would serve to disabuse you of this notion.

[SoothingDave]

If something is true by revelation or true by deduction isn't it still true?

Something that you try to make true with logic does not trump that which already is true through the spirit.

I'm not talking trump here. I'm talking about simple little things like taking the statment "Mary was the mother of Jesus" and "Jesus is God" and using logic to then say "Mary must have had God in her womb"

The Bible never says in so many words "Mary carried God in her womb" but we can say it by deduction.

Because it's true.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

... I guess that is why I would not make a good Catholic and why I constantly question people, and search the scriptures in private. ------------------------------------------------------------

That is why I was told to "shut up" my questions were "confusing" the other kids. Questions like; "How could Mary be a Perpetual Virgin and still have other children? Answers like; "Because we tell you so. Now just shut up"

I still don't know whether I left the RCC or I was thrown out.

[JHavard]

Our differences are not salvation matters, they are personal preference matters, that have everything to do with personality, and nothing to do with salvation.

I imagine a Calvinist and a Nazarene would serve to disabuse you of this notion.

If there are any on this thread I would like to hear it from them, but what do you think?

[dadwags]

#1026
one thing to remember about Ignatius . He was on his way to be executed for the faith , the faith that considers lying a cause for damnation . so, the doubts you may have about him should, IMHO, be confined to the validity of authorship, "did he really say that ?"

[OLD REGGIE]

So because of that you would wish to throw away the collective wisdom of civilization? Go back to living just on your own wits and avoid any knowledge that has been passed down?

I said that if we build on truth, truth remains true. If we build more truth on top of that, the original truth is still true, as is the new understanding of the truth. Obviously if we build up fallacy or "wives tales" they are not truth.

See the answer given by hopefulpilgrim #1007. This is excellent.