The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[Aquinasfan]

Serious question Al. Why ask Mary to do it when it's spelled out in scripture that we can intercede in prayer ourselves?

We pray to God the Father through the Body of the "one mediator" between the Father and man, Christ.

(1 Corinthians 12:26-28) Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

We should pray for each other. And the prayer of a righteous person is especially effective:

(James 5:15-17)Therefore confess your sins. to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

[JHavard]

I have no problem with the painting itelf, but it should not be the central focus of the church.

So what do you intend to do about it?

[OLD REGGIE]

And why do you all totally ignore her?

Jews don't totally ignore Jesus. He is accorded a position of honor but is not WORSHIPPED by them.

Is it difficult for you to understand that to deny Deity to her is not the same as ignoring her? It is a matter of degree.

[SoothingDave]

Devotion to Our Blessed Lady in its ultimate analysis must be regarded as a practical application of the doctrine of the Communion of Saints.

Oh, you mean taking a cup of wine and a piece of bread, like at Passover, and remembering Mary
...er...
Christ.

No, wait, You mean the commandment to not forsake the gathering of the Saints. (I have directv so I can be included even when not in New Orleans!LOL) Oops, I was falling into a Catholics line of reasoning.

Somewhow I cannot make the "Mary" connection!
Communion of Saints huh?!
Please explain what that is in laymans terms!!!

Nate, it is customary to ask the Catholics for an explanation before you mock and ridicule them. Otherwise you'll end up wallowing in your ignorance as you do here.

The "Communion" in the Communion of the Saints does not refer to the bread and wine used at Mass. Rather it talks of the actually union in Christ which unites all Christains. Those living on earth and those living in Heaven. We are united and death can not seperate us, because Christ defeated death.

In imitation of Christ, who gave of himself for others, all of the members of the Communion of Saints give of themselves to help others. This means that I pray for you and other people who need help. I know you guys hate "merit" but certain actions will reap certain rewards. If I donate these rewards to someone else I am following Christ's example.

It is because of this unity and this sharing that we can truly say that we are never alone in our walk with Christ. Someone is always praying for us. Always.

SD

[al_c]

Because you don't believe God took care of your petitions earlier in the week?

Finally ... a stupid question!!! ;o) (j.k.)

Of course God takes care of my petitions, according to His will. I believe in that (hence the "Amen" at the end of my prayers). But I don't let it stop there. I don't just petition God for something once and let it go. Sure, He could answer that prayer right off the bat after one petition, but to show my sincerity, I will continue earnestly in prayer to Him (whether directly or through the prayers of the saints).

[SoothingDave]

What you might learn here is how the cult of Mary developed over the course of centuries

Well, at least you called it what it is...a cult.

Says a member of the cult of Jesus.

"Cult" as used here is not pejorative.

SD

[al_c]

So what do you intend to do about it?

I was thinking about writing a letter to the editor of a local Catholic paper (The Texas Catholic), to the bishop and to the parish itself. Of course, the parish may not listen as it is Our Lady of Guadalupe.

[RobbyS]

Arius was shown to be a heretic, but those who defeated his heresy wound up introducing one of their own! No, Arius did not prevail, but his heresy has hardly died. What we call deism is really the same thing in modern garb. There are many "Christians," including many progressive" Catholics" who are morally offended by the idea that God became fresh. The idea of the Virgin Birth, of the Mother of God, is as offensive to them as it is to the most radical Protestant. Both want to turn Jesus into a mere "spirit" and a repudiation of Mary is all part of that. Mary goes away and we see a "spiritualized," even feminine, pacifist Jesus--the simpering, soft figure of so much church art, rather than the man with power over storms, and the Messiah who sits in Judgement of the world.

[RobbyS]

God became fresh. OOPS! FLESH! And I don't have the excuse of being Japanese.

[ksen]

Check out this site here.

***WARNING***
If you are Catholic you may find the material on that website offensive. Enter at your own risk.

-ksen

[SoothingDave]

1. Jesus and Mary bedecked in jewels is offensive to me. As I recall, they weren't rich.

Sir, it's not a lifelike rendition, it's an icon. Once again you confuse history with something else.

You would deny the King and His mom jewels? All is rightfully belonging to Him. We show that.

2. The severed hand resting just beneath Jesus's feet, waiting to be sewed back onto St. Damascene, by Mary is also offensive to me.

Deal with it. St. John asked Jesus' mother to ask him to fix it and it got fixed. Every saint canonized today has at least two posthumous miracles caused by prayer petitions handled by the saint.

3. If that image doesn't portray Mary as the superior of the two I don't know what does.

Jesus is an infant! Hello? At that stage in life, He was utterly dependent upon her. For real. He was truly God, truly man and truly helpless. Mary wiped His little Butt and removed the Divine Feces. For real. It's not a myth. The Incarnation really happened. This is an image of it.

4. You might have some fun at a Unitarian Church but be careful you don't find yourself in an athiest one. They are very persuasive people. Check with me before you go. OK???

I would be careful of a Church with a "whatever" attitude. Remember that this is the message you bring to the world. Not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but the all-so-human "whatever makes you feel actualized."

SD

[Aquinasfan]

Immaculate Conception. Where in Scripture?

Perpetual Virginity. Where in Scripture?

Bodily Assumption. Where in Scripture?

I'm afraid the Scripture leg is missing.

These are the doctrines of the Church that Christ founded, "the pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim 3:16), and the Church that Jesus commands us to go to in order to settle disagreements: "(Matthew 18:16-18) If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector."

Like the doctrine of the Trinity, the doctrines you mention are not explicitly mentioned in Scripture, but that does not make the doctrines invalid since when "the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth (John 16:12-14)"

The question is, where is Sola Scriptura in Scripture?

I'm afraid the Scripture leg is missing.

[vmatt]

And to clarify then, you do not believe the Word of God and His Spirit in you testifying to these things is enough authority?

In light of Johns words do they still hold true? All Christian religions believe and yet most have terribly wrong doctrines. Where are the signs that follow them that believe? Can a little falsehood, just a little leaven be tolerable to God? Does He demand perfection? Growth? Progress?

1 John 4 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

The time of perfection in human form is past. He came once that way and your salvation will take you to walk with Him when you die. I see for you that is not enough. I just remember you telling someone in a post, and I agree, that modern day Christians are waiting for another sign. A physical Kingdom. But I fear you are making this same mistake in order to feel validated in all you believe.

Yes I seek validation but true validation. I have struggled for many years and still cannot find fellowship that isn't stagnant and in gross error. Few are fighting the good fight as if their lives depend on it. Paul fought the good fight, endured to the end. How do I?

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

The perfection you seek is Christ and your communion with Him that is within you. It can be shared, encouraged and challenged by the physical relations with other brethren who have this gift, but not perfected through someones or some organizations "superior truth". That only comes to us from the Bible.

Not superior truth, just the truth one needs to worship in spirit and in truth. God seeks such to worship Him. I have reached a point where I cannot pass in my understanding of the bible. I simply can't understand so many things. How am I to learn them? Does God expect me to? Where are the leaders God so lovingly provided the early Christians? Why does God tolerate the divided nature of Christianity today?

I wish I could be more encouraging but the pattern of history continues as before. Through a series of struggle and reformation we come closer as Christians to the knowledge of who God really is and what Christs Kingdom is all about.

I see this a little differently. Christianity has been in a proverbial rut for 2000 years. You see reformation but I see a visible historical reformation so called but during the same periods there were unpublicized movements of Gods spirit among peoples we know nothing about. I love the little non-denominational churches where poor humble people approach God with the simplicity of a child. Where anyone is welcome because this is Gods will. You are a pleasure for me to hear because you speak much truth. Once you know a truth, there is no way to turn back. Jesus brought a sword to divide and it still does.

[RobbyS]

Old News. Reminds me of the Enlightenment view of Christianity as just another mystery religion, Osiris and all that!

[al_c]

Mary wiped His little Butt and removed the Divine Feces.

ROFLOL!!!!!!! I'm now looking forward to going home this evening and taking care of one of Hannah's "poopy" diapers.

Thanks for the laugh, Dave.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

We pray to God the Father through the Body of the "one mediator" between the Father and man, Christ.

Really? Where do you find that in the following scripture? For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

We pray to God the Father through the Body of the "one mediator" between the Father and man, Christ.

I suppose since we're all "one body" in that sense we could say we all died on the cross too?

(1 Corinthians 12:26-28) Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. We should pray for each other. And the prayer of a righteous person is especially effective: (James 5:15-17)Therefore confess your sins. to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much (1 Corinthians 12:26-28) Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. We should pray for each other. And the prayer of a righteous person is especially effective: (James 5:15-17)Therefore confess your sins. to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

No disagreement here. Don't see where the writers Paul and James were including prayer to the physically dead saints and Mary.

[SoothingDave]

Thanks for the laughs. Offensive? I think not. Sad? Definitely.

Are you one of those anti-Christmas people? This same type of thinking is shown on that website.

SD

[vmatt]

There are many "Christians," including many progressive" Catholics" who are morally offended by the idea that God became fresh.

Where in scipture does God become flesh?

[OLD REGGIE]

Sorry this answer is long in coming.I questioned your animus to Roman Catholicism which really seems to never end. Sometimes I just cannot understand why it is so important for you to argue every point and passage that a Catholic uses to defend or explain a position someone has questioned.

I have to give it to you. You are much more subtle than William Donahue and many other Catholic Apologists. They would scream Catholic Basher while you gently "question my animus".

I am constitutionally unable to ignore what I consider to be extra scriptural notions glibly passed on as absoloute, unquestioned truths. It is as simple as that.
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Clearly you are a bright person and know that a Catholic has an entirely different world view and mind set than non-Catholics. We think Truth,Who is God,is found in faith and reason,in revelation and natural law,in the natural world and the supernatural world and it all works together. We can accept that the Triune God,while unchanging can be seen more clearly as we follow the organic flow from the source through history. We also know that history did not begin with our birth and that a just and loving God sent His Son to make it easier for all who chose Him to find the way home. Therefore He established a Church composed of mere man with all the flaws and failings of man.It is protected in matters of faith and morals to the end of time by the successors of the apostles led by the successor of Peter.

You were doing fine until you made a dogmatic statement (highlighted) which is the opinion of many and is not supported by Scripture. If I take issue with this statement is it because of my "animus" or because I believe it is not true. You seem to feel I should just keep quiet and ignore such a statement.

Would you react if I had only changed your wording to say; "It is protected in matters of faith and morals to the end of time by the Fellowship of the Faithful. The Apostleship died out with the deaths of the Apostles."?
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Because it has been successful in bringing men to God it is hated by those men who seek to control or subjugate them and use them as pawns in a game. God created us to be free to choose Him and once that happens,man can no longer be enslaved therefore the Church is a bulwark that must be destroyed. Many people,wittingly or unwittingly,confuse and divide Gods children. When bright people seem to delight in arguing the same issues over and over again I cannot help but wonder if they are not carrying out an agenda that is not of God. I hope I am wrong but your comments in view of your intelligence seem to me to be suspect. Thats the best I can do but I would be happy to discuss this further.I am having trouble with my keyboard right now the spacer is stuck.

I get the impression you feel all dissent is wrong. Bear in mind, I don't argue with myself. If no one reacted to my postings the discussions would be over. We could then call this forum "Christian Chronicles - The Catholic Point of View. Catholic Apologists only!!!!

[nobdysfool]

49 years young....:o)

Or, to put it another way, I will soon be celebrating the 20th anniversary of my 30th birthday....:o)