The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[malakhi]

I would say that technically you are in full blown apostasy. But you're one of the nicest apostates I've ever met. :-)

Why, thank you Dave. ;o)

'Course, when I was a practicing Catholic, I was an apostate Jew. Whaddya gonna do?

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

Yes you did already say that and I think we agree alot on the extent of authority. But today it is authority given by man to set up "man" churches (denominations). The Catholics argue that the authority has not lessened at all.
I say it is impossible to claim that with out Christ Himself to sort out which "claimer of authority" is the correct one.
And He is not going to do that because the only "church" he is really concerned about is the heart of a man and his relationship to God and men. That is why it is a useless argument and one that requires more study to determine why we resorted to a "churchy" structure again as the Jews and didn't take Christs word for it as to His spiritual Kingdom.

We humans are so habitual.

[RobbyS]

What's this? Don't pray in public, and if you do don't close your eyes or move your lips? Or if you do go to church, show your disdain of ritual as Cromwell did by putting muddly boots on the Communion table?

[nobdysfool]

Mack asked: "Anbody else think this is pure bull crap"?

If by catholic you mean universal, then yes, I can buy that. Universal, or undivided, is the actual meaning of the word catholic. Spell it with a capital "C", and the meaning shifts to the Roman Catholic Church. If the Roman Church wants to count me as a member for purposes of definition, fine. As long as I don't have to wear a robe, a pointy hat, or make the sign of the cross or genuflect to statues, I'm fine with that....:o)

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

I do not deny your sincerity in such acts. I thought I would've made that clear to you by now. I again, would just like to clarify if it is a necessary ritual for the acts of salvation, forgiveness, etc.

If i never do the sign of the cross, are you more holy or on the right path than I because you do?

If I never go to a priest, does the forgiveness of God and the direct person I sinned against complete the issue.

Where are you right and I am wrong on issues of harmless ritual?

Again, I reserve the right to consider many rituals harmful.(Confession sold seperately, Mary is included).

[vmatt]

What's this? Don't pray in public, and if you do don't close your eyes or move your lips? Or if you do go to church, show your disdain of ritual as Cromwell did by putting muddly boots on the Communion table?

Not muddly ones though.

[ksen]

I don't think so. Let me rephrase. It seems in this passage that Jesus is saying that the church will have both good seed and tares in it.

This is a Kingdom of Heaven parable. The Kingdom of Heaven is not the Church, although the Church will be a part of the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven is the Messianic Kingdom. The primary application of this parable is to the coming Messianic Kingdom.

That said, there is a secondary application for the Church. Jesus warns us that some unregenerate will join themselves to the local, visible Church.

How does this square with only allowing those who have been 'saved' to join?...Also, how do you know that someone is 'saved' and can join?

I am a deacon at the church I attend. Here is how our membership process works. Person A decides that Faith Baptist Church is the church that God wants them to join. They come forward at a church service and let our Pastor know. He gets Person A with the chairman of our Deacon board. The Chairman takes down some information from Person A and gives them a one page questionaire. Person A starts attending the New Members Sunday School class where one of our Pastors goes through the Church's Constitution and Statement of Faith. When Person A has completed the New Members class then an appointment is set up for Person A to meet with the Deacon Board. At that meeting we ask to hear Person A's testimony. After hearing the testimony we ask any questions that the testimony may have raised. If Person A has not mentioned it, we ask if they have been baptized by immersion, if they have great, if they have not then a time is scheduled to get that done. Then the floor is turned over so Person A can ask any questions he or she may have about the Church.

After all that has been done, Person A leaves and the Deacons talk about the interview and air any reservations we may have. Then we vote on whether or not to bring Person A before the congregation as whole to vote on his or her membership. If a majority of the congregation votes to bring Person A into membership then Person A becomes a member.

Our system isn't perfect, but we do our best to only allow those who have truly been "born-again" to enter into membership.

Are you saying that this passage doesn't apply to the church, but rather to the world as a whole?

No, I am saying that the main application should be to the Messianic Kingdom.

-ksen

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Did you really want to give it to BigMack? ;o)

And what would be so wrong with that? I'll wait till you freepmail SD for your answer.

BigMack

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

No, I am saying that the main application should be to the Messianic Kingdom.

So why need membership to any other?

Sounds to me like you will know them by their answers to your questionaire, not fruits.

Church membership is useless. It is a Christians version of the Lions Club or Masonic gatherings.

[RobbyS]

I think it is O.R. who has it wrong. All I am contending is that Christians used the Septuagint, that Jews used both and that they didn't move toward an exclusive use of the "Hebrew" scriptures until the 2nd Century, when Jewish nationalism became less political and more linguistic and religious. I gather that many Greek-speaking Jews were attracted to Christianity in part because they used the same Scriptures.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Our system isn't perfect, but we do our best to only allow those who have truly been "born-again" to enter into membership.

What if I tell you in the interview that I smoke or I would ware coveralls to church?

BigMack

[RobbyS]

Stiff-necked applied to Puritans and their successors, who only bow their heads to pray. Making the sign of the cross is one of my most spontaneous prayers and is a creedal statement as well as a prayer.

[JHavard]

The Church of God is the Catholic Church. Every Christian who is baptised is joined to the Catholic Church. All members of the Body of Christ share this connection by baptism. The Body of Christ is a subset of the Catholic Church. That is, not all who claim to belong actually do, and many who are invincibly ignorant and claim not to belong, actually do. The Body of Christ is all of the True Believers both those inside the Catholic Church and outside. It can be thought of as the ark of our salvation. Being inside is a good place to be, but there is no guarantee that you won't be thrown overboard. But being outside and tied to the ark only by your baptism is a tenuous way to get saved. It is possible, but it is not nearly as nice as being inside.

I have heard several of the Catholics go on this diatribe many times in the past, and it must be listed in their book of "How to Drive a Non-Catholic Up a Wall, With Out Really Trying."

The method reminds me of the movie scene where the obnoxious guy asks the girl out, and when she says, no! He says, common babe, you know you love me honey and you can't live with out me, and when she says, Get lost creep, he says, see you're trying to hide your attraction for me by saying I'm a creep, but it just proves you want me all the more, and when you try to act mad, it is simply that anger is an emotion like love, and you're showing your love for me by bla bla bla.

Someone must have a name for this sick psychology, but for me, once I get my finger out of my throat, I'll be alright. Lol (^g^) JH

[vmatt]

Who pee'd in your Cheerios this morning? Man, you're in a foul mood!

Sorry about my mood. Where am I wrong in my asessment?

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

What if I tell you in the interview that I smoke or I would ware coveralls to church?

Now you done it. I'll bet your a long haired, Petra listening rebel also!!!

Get thee behind me!!. I guess behind the curtain will do!

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

I wish you would respond to my post earlier. Do you really feel we need a physical "authoritative church" in order to have a "loving God"?
If we both agree that the whole of prophecy is fufilled, we must agree that the time spoken of in Revelation of New Heavens and New Earth is now.

My logical conclusion to that is:
1. The extent of the church and it's authority is Christ. Our knowledge of Him comes from the Bible and His spirit within us.
2. There is nothing physical left to happen as far as the Messiah's mission so we should take joy in what we have been given, freedom to worship, freedom from sin, and carry on the spreading of the Word (Christ crucified and risen for our salvation).
3. Let ourselves, in love, sharpen each others knowledge by challenging our beliefs. As long as they lead to "The Way, the Truth and the Life" we can dispute the petty stuff.

I know you were serious earlier, but so was I. There should be joy in realizing the victory is "complete" and not pending.

Great quote from a friend:
"Frustration is the thresh hold of Knowledge."

[Servant of the Nine]

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[vmatt]

I wish you would respond to my post earlier.

Sorry, juggling several things.

Do you really feel we need a physical "authoritative church"...

Yes...

in order to have a "loving God"?

No.

If we both agree that the whole of prophecy is fufilled, we must agree that the time spoken of in Revelation of New Heavens and New Earth is now.

Yes I agree. But it does not just drop onto our laps. I cannot say that for myself I have found but a small part of what I must. I need a true authoritative leadership and I know it. I believe we all do. It just isn't here. I am seeking it.

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

It just isn't here. I am seeking it.

And to clarify then, you do not believe the Word of God and His Spirit in you testifying to these things is enough authority?

The time of perfection in human form is past. He came once that way and your salvation will take you to walk with Him when you die.
I see for you that is not enough. I just remember you telling someone in a post, and I agree, that modern day Christians are waiting for another sign. A physical Kingdom. But I fear you are making this same mistake in order to feel validated in all you believe.

The perfection you seek is Christ and your communion with Him that is within you. It can be shared, encouraged and challenged by the physical relations with other brethren who have this gift, but not perfected through someones or some organizations "superior truth". That only comes to us from the Bible.

I wish I could be more encouraging but the pattern of history continues as before. Through a series of struggle and reformation we come closer as Christians to the knowledge of who God really is and what Christs Kingdom is all about.

[nobdysfool]

Where am I wrong in my asessment?

I think it was a little too general and broad. You splattered all of us here with it. To be sure there are some who are off the wall, and not as saved as they think they are, but ultimately it's not your issue to judge, it's God's. Our job is to share the Gospel, and uphold each other in prayer, as well as praying for the lost. I don't think I'd classify anyone on this list as "lost"...Lost people generally don't find much pleasure in talking about the things of God, it tends to cause conviction.

Are you, like, manic-depressive or something? No offense, I'm just curious. You're among friends here.