The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[Invincibly Ignorant]

Worshipping Mary would be idolotry. Asking for her intercession would not.

Serious question Al. Why ask Mary to do it when it's spelled out in scripture that we can intercede in prayer ourselves?

[SoothingDave]

Re 10286

Let's just take one example of your "three legged stool":

The issue of Mary.

Immaculate Conception. Where in Scripture?

Perpetual Virginity. Where in Scripture?

Bodily Assumption. Where in Scripture?

I'm afraid the Scripture leg is missing.

This is what happens when you don't have Tradition or an authority to help you read Scripture. You miss things that are there. For instance, the only evidence against perpetual virginity is tenuous, at best. Scripture seems to argue against it, but only if you read the Bible in the original English with no conception of the peoples or language as used by them at that time.

The IC and the Assumption are implicit in the entire idea of the Incarnation. While standing outside and throwing rocks and demanding explicit texts, you will never see them. But that is OK, as your 50 year vendetta rolls on.

SD

[JHavard]

Worshipping Mary would be idolotry. Asking for her intercession would not.

If you happened to overhear someone praying before Mary, and you felt they were worshiping her rather then just praying for intercession, what would they have to be saying that would let you know they were going over the line?

[al_c]

I can only remember one time the whole thread that this has happened and that was with our friend Havoc (he could get a catholic hot fast:)

Have you forgotten about our good friend doctor7?

[al_c]

Shes in bed with a bad tooth

Did one of the horses hit back? ;o)

[DouglasKC]

So we've found another one of the sayings of Jesus that have no meaning today. Hooray! You are essentially saying that as soon as the first dissenter or heretic came along we were free to not have to listen to the Church Jesus established. Even though he told us to. That's some loophole.

I do not believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the church Christ established. It's far different from the church Christ established.

It's going to be impossible to debate this with you because you are under the impression that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church there is.

Just out of curiousity, can any doctrine of the Roman Catholic church ever be wrong in your view? Would you still remain a member under any hypothetical doctinal change I can imagine?

[SoothingDave]

Did Foxe just make up those stories of people like Cranmer, et.al. being burned at the stake for not toeing to Roman Church line? Did those people whose deaths he chronicled really have nice peaceful deaths in their old age instead of being burned alive?

Foxe may have some actually true stories, but he shows no discernment between truth and whatever tall tale could be told. Did you catch my post yesterday? About history being like a science, where actual evidence is presented? How telling stories about how bad Catholics are, even if they please you and give you a sense of righteous indignation, does not "history" make.

SD

[SoothingDave]

Just out of curiousity, can any doctrine of the Roman Catholic church ever be wrong in your view?

No, of course not. Being protected by the Holy Spirit from error in faith and morals and all that.

Would you still remain a member under any hypothetical doctinal change I can imagine?

You can hypothesise all you like. It doesn't mean that the Church will do what you say. "What if the Church came out in favor of abortion?" Will not, can not, will not happen. Ever.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

What makes you think the early church didn't worship Mary? If you were they, wouldn't you venerate the mother of the Lord? Even from a Protestant standpoint she must be recognized, as Luke did, as numbering among the first Christians, and the only woman identified by name at the meeting that chose the replacement for Judas, was Mary.

From the Protestant point of view Mary is recognized, she is just not worshipped.

Why do you think it is so very significant that Luke mentioned Mary by name? After all, Mary is the mother of Jesus. Of course he recognized her, she was the most important woman there. Other than that, did the Apostles offer up a prayer to her, did they ask her for any special favors, or did they just go about their business of replacing Judas with someone who would take his share of the ministry?
------------------------------------------------------------

While we are discussing this chapter of Luke maybe you can answer for me what was Peters' share of the ministry? Was it 1/12th or some greater fraction?

Acts 1:

15 In those days Peter stood up among the brethren (the company of persons was in all about a hundred and twenty), and said,
16 "Brethren, the scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David, concerning Judas who was guide to those who arrested Jesus.
17 For he was numbered among us, and was allotted his share in this ministry.
18 (Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out.
19 And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their language Akel'dama, that is, Field of Blood.)
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, 'Let his habitation become desolate, and let there be no one to live in it'; and 'His office let another take.'

Where, in Scripture or in history, does an event such as this occur? Why? Or why not?

[ksen]

If only the Catholics had asked Luther whether he smoked or not! Excuse me for chuckling. The last thing you want in a Protestant Church is a rebel. :-)

Well, yeah. Rebelling from the Catholic Church is just simple common sense, while rebelling from my church would be a damnable heresy.

That's a joke. ;^)

-ksen

[al_c]

Serious question Al.

Darn! I was hoping for another stupid one. ;o)

Why ask Mary to do it when it's spelled out in scripture that we can intercede in prayer ourselves?

Do you think that Catholics only pray through Mary (or any other saint)? First and foremost, every day I pray to God the Father. One on one. I also pray to Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Sometimes to all as one being. Once a week, I ask Mary for her intercession by praying the Rosary. You ask why. I ask why not? It's also spelled out in scripture that the saints pray to God on our behalf (I'll use Revelation for an example), so maybe it's good that we ask them personally for their prayers, wouldn't you agree?

[SoothingDave]

Re 10288

I certainly do. I am a first generation American, but if you say I am a puritan I guess I must be.

"Puritan" has a meaning Reggie. Specifically, the iconoclasts who felt the Anglican Church wasn't apostasising quickly enough.

Do you want to see his hand?

Click here. St. Damascenes' hand. Note Jesus is still a baby. Wow! How Scriptural. My puritan nose finds this even more offensive.

Well, that settles it! I am heading straight down to my local Unitarian Universalist Church and getting baptized. Portraying the Madonna and Child, with Jesus as a baby is just too much! What with Christmas coming up and everything, seeing a picture of Christ as a baby is utterly offensive.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

In my Church the New Testament is the founding document of our community, whose founding fathers were the Apostles. But we do not believe that Christianity fell into corruption after the First Century, only to be rescued by the Reformers "return" to the forms of the primitive church fourteen hundred years later. Discord, unrestm heresy and division can be seen even in the pages of the New Testament, so there was nothing magical about what the Apostles did. To reproduce the life they lived is a very difficult if not impossible endeavor, for the simple reason that we are not our ancestors. We are joined with them in blood and in spirit, but there is so much about them that we do not know. We can admire, we can imitate, but we cannot be them.

Pious sounding, but it doesn't negate the appearance that the New Testament is the shortest leg of your three legged stool.

[SoothingDave]

In your Church you don't need the New Testament. It would just get in the way. Why don't you just say it? The New Testament is worthless.

Says the Unitarian Universalist. Ha. Your Church will accept any balderdash that comes down the pike.

(BTW, if you're trying to become so offensive that I lose my cool, forget about it. You are this close to being sent to Coventry again.)

SD

[SoothingDave]

The next example is Prov 17:9 where you quote “He who forgives an offence seeks love.”

Most translations say “He who covers a transgression”, in fact out of 9 translations, and the KJV being the one I searched, only two others offered the “Forgive an offence” and they were the RSV and the NRS, and even then, they were not direct words from God, but words of wisdom.

The 3rd quote you gave was Lev 19:18 and it said nothing using the word “forgiveness”, but was talking about not taking vengeance and loving your neighbor, while it may be the spiritual equivalent of forgiveness, it is not the word, and that’s what this discussion was about, and as I already said, the whole OT was about love, but I am still surprised their was no word commonly used for it.

So it appears it is not my search feature, and I know the word is in the Gospels thank you, but it is the OT I'm talking about.

Wow. You guys really do worship the Book, don't you? I believe it was you that decided we were looking only for "the word" forgiveness and not talking about the concept. Angelo and I are both talking about ideas one can garner from the Bible. And what these ideas mean. I was talking about John 20 and how Jesus giving the authority to forgive sins means something.

You said that it was only God giving his blessing to interpersonal forgiveness. You then find that God never did such a thing in the OT. But you restrict your search to the literal word "forgiveness" and not a search for ideas.

This is a very sad way to approach Scripture. "Who cares about meaning, I will just search for certain arbitrary key words and assume that if I can't find them, God never talks about the subject."

No wonder you guys can't synthesise anything about Mary from the texts. You are stuck looking at the trees.

SD

[nobdysfool]

What you might learn here is how the cult of Mary developed over the course of centuries

Well, at least you called it what it is...a cult.

You might even notice that it first really flowered as a result of the Arian dispute, as a popular reaction--an evident distaste, --to the rationalism of Arius

And, I think it could be easily inferred that it was an over-reaction to the Arian heresy. In their zeal to disprove Arius, they not only restated the theology of the Incarnation, but added to it. Somehow that addition took on a life of its own. Arius was shown to be a heretic, but those who defeated his heresy wound up introducing one of their own!

Robby, why is it that you can dig up all this stuff, and yet still not see the truth? You are so obviously devoted to Mary, because you spend all this time defending the Marian doctrines, but you don't see the origins for what they are: ERROR!!!

[OLD REGGIE]

Well, that settles it! I am heading straight down to my local Unitarian Universalist Church and getting baptized. Portraying the Madonna and Child, with Jesus as a baby is just too much! What with Christmas coming up and everything, seeing a picture of Christ as a baby is utterly offensive.

You must be very short because the whole thing went right over your head.

1. Jesus and Mary bedecked in jewels is offensive to me. As I recall, they weren't rich.

2. The severed hand resting just beneath Jesus's feet, waiting to be sewed back onto St. Damascene, by Mary is also offensive to me.

3. If that image doesn't portray Mary as the superior of the two I don't know what does.

4. You might have some fun at a Unitarian Church but be careful you don't find yourself in an athiest one. They are very persuasive people. Check with me before you go. OK???

[al_c]

If you happened to overhear someone praying before Mary, and you felt they were worshiping her rather then just praying for intercession, what would they have to be saying that would let you know they were going over the line?

Good question. I'll give you a couple of examples. If said person is asking her personally for forgiveness, salvation, or any other thing that comes from God, I would consider that worship. For the other example, here in the Diocese of Dallas, a parish was recently given a huge painting of Mary (Virgin of Guadalupe) that was blessed in Rome by JPII. Instead of placing it somewhere else in the church, they put it up behind the altar. IMO, that shouldn't be done. I have no problem with the painting itelf, but it should not be the central focus of the church.

[RobbyS]

Other than that, did the Apostles offer up a prayer to her, did they ask her for any special favors, But they did ask for the sanction of her presence. Else why did Luke mention this?

What wss Peter's share? To me if there is anything that the New Testament makes clear is that his share was the primacy. In the "cabinet" of the Twelve, he was premier.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Do you think that Catholics only pray through Mary (or any other saint)?

Doesn't matter if I think that or not. My question had no bearing on whether or not all catholics exclusively pray thru Mary or a saint.

First and foremost, every day I pray to God the Father. One on one. I also pray to Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Sometimes to all as one being.

No prob with this.

Once a week, I ask Mary for her intercession by praying the Rosary.

Why? Because you don't believe God took care of your petitions earlier in the week?

You ask why. I ask why not?

Because there is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. Therefore its a worksbased ritual.

It's also spelled out in scripture that the saints pray to God on our behalf (I'll use Revelation for an example)

Its spelled out that they intercede up there for us, its not spelled out that you or I can petition them to intercede for us or communicate with physically dead saints (as a matter of fact the Bible frowns on this),

so maybe it's good that we ask them personally for their prayers, wouldn't you agree?

Sorry. No agreement here.