Posted on 10/04/2001 12:48:43 PM PDT by Turan
I've read that "islam" does mean both. Now, there could be other words that mean just peace or just submission, but islam means both.
Our own Judeo-Christian scriptures have their own disgraceful parts--for example, the stuff about hating and stoning homosexuals, adulterers, etc. But the main message of all religions is the same--love God and our fellow man. We need to throw out the bad and keep the good (and most of it is good).
"And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury); but say, "We believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; our God and your God is One; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."" [29:46]
I don't know if McVeigh ever claimed to be a Christian, but I can take my Bible and show you that he wasn't (unless there was an unreported last-minute conversion that took place. That seems doubtful, because he was defiant right up to the end and there was very little about his final minutes that went unreported.)
And that is the problem with your point. You can't read the Bible in a reasonable manner and believe God condones what Timothy McVeigh did. But our Muslim friend who wrote this article only told half the story about his "holy" book. A person can read the Qur'an in a resonable manner and find some justification for doing what the terrorists did. That is why many Muslims throughout the world - even in the U.S. - were celebrating the attacks initially. The only reason the celebrating stopped (for the most part) and the apologists were sent out in front of the cameras is because they realized we were serious about punishing the guilty, and they wanted to get out of the line of fire.
Here we go again. Let's consult the source:
Medina Suras
The Chapter of Women
[Chapters from the Koran]
The Harvard Classics 1909–14But if there befalls you grace from God, he would say—as though there were no friendship between you and him—‘O would that I had been with thee to attain this mighty happiness!’ Let those then fight in God’s way who sell this life of the world for the next; and whoso fights in God’s way, then, be he killed or be he victorious, we will give him a mighty hire.
What ails you that ye do not fight in God’s way, and for the weak men and women and children, who say, ‘Lord, bring us out of this town 19 of oppressive folk, and make for us from Thee a patron, and make for us from Thee a help?’
Those who believe fight in the way of God; and those who disbelieve fight in the way of Tâghût; fight ye then against the friends of Satan, verily, Satan’s tricks are weak.
Do ye not see those to whom it is said, ‘Restrain your hands, and be steadfast in prayer and give alms;’ and when it is prescribed for them to fight then a band of them fear men, as though it were the fear of God or a still stronger fear, and they say, ‘O our Lord! why hast thou prescribed for us to fight, couldst thou not let us abide till our near appointed time?’ Say, ‘The enjoyment of this world is but slight, and the next is better for him who fears;’—but they shall not be wronged a straw.
... Why are ye two parties about the hypocrites, when God hath overturned them for what they earned? Do ye wish to guide those whom God hath led astray? Whoso God hath led astray ye shall not surely find for him a path. They would fain that ye misbelieve as they misbelieve, that ye might be alike; take ye not patrons from among them until they too flee in God’s way; but if they turn their backs, then seize them and kill them wheresoever ye find them, and take from them neither patron nor help,—save those who reach a people betwixt whom and you is an alliance—or who come to you while their bosoms prevent them from fighting you or fighting their own people. But had God pleased He would have given you dominion over them, and they would surely have fought you. But if they retire from you and do not fight you, and offer you peace,—then God hath given you no way against them.
Ye will find others who seek for quarter from you, and quarter from their own people; whenever they return to sedition they shall be overturned therein: but if they retire not from you, nor offer you peace, nor restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wheresoever ye find them;—over these we have made for you manifest power.
"Before you point out the mote in your brother's eye, pluck the beam out of your own eye."
You can find NO harsh commands in the New Testament--THE standard by which the Old Testament commands are judged. The Koran has no such distinctions though...even getting harsher in its later parts.
There is simply no comparison between the love of Jesus and the harsheness Mohammed.
Sorry to have to ignore you, but we don't have too much time for academics right now.
We're busy with reality; In the actual world, Muslims either enjoy mayhem and murder, or are deaf dumb and blind.
People need to be dealt with according to what they do, not what they say.
In both cases, they need to be dealt with first.
These are the verses like they should be read:
"[88] Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the way, never shalt thou find the Way. [89] They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks." [4:88&89]
Hypocrites were some people who pretended to be Muslim but were not. They were inner enemies of Islam.
The Surah goes on to talk about the same people: the hypocrites, not the Jews, not the Christians:
"[90]Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (Of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them). [91] Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto; if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them; in their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them." [4:90&91]
Interesting, you who you call yourself Bible Believer. The Quran says about you otherwise:
"Strongest among men in enmity to the Believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the Believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant." [5:82]
Indeed, your trials to make me and other Muslims hate Christians is a big failure. Where I come from, I have many close Christian friends. I celebrate Christmas with them, they celerbrate Eid with me. Even Jews; I have not made friends with a Jew who wasn't a wonderful person. They made me understand the difference between "Jewish" and "pro-Israel". A very religious group of them made a demonstration in front of the UN in June, holding banners like: "Zionism is Racism", and "Palestine Is For The Palestinians", and "Stop Killing Palestinian Children".
It's much easier to plant the good seed of love in our hearts than to try to poison our minds with hate. Visit Bethlehem and see for yourself what the word "tolerance" means.
Are these virgins real human women or something else? If real human women, where are they from?
First off, the word Islam has no relation with the word for peace (salaam / or shalom in Hebrew). It is instead the imperative form of the verb "aslama", or to "submit". In other words, the name literally is a command to submit to the will of Allah ("The God"), and more pertinently to the teachings of his supposed prophet, Mohammed. When someone starts off with a lie or at the least an accidental untruth, they are one of two things. They are a liar and/or they are ignorant. In either case, this article is garbage.
Regarding the peacefulness of Islam, the bulk of the text of the Quran and long history clearly demonstrate that it is a religion of conquest and NOT peace. If they had somehow gained the technological superiority and dominance which the west has had since around 1400, they would have used it to crush our ancestors into the dust.
Ann Coulter may have been canned for saying so out loud, but in a holy war only one side comes out alive and unconverted. Christians need to realize this. Most Jews, especially those in Israel, found it out long ago.
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