The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles) -- Thread 156

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

The belief in a God All Powerful, wise and good, is essential to the moral order of the world and to the happiness of man. - James Madison

Threads 1-50

Threads 51-100

Threads 101-150

Thread 151

Thread 152

Thread 153

Thread 154

The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles) -- Thread 155

[dignan3]

From Thread 155:148

Can you not see how 68, or 20, or even 2 Christian "denominations" are a cause of scandal to the Body of Christ?

No

To be honest with you, I am shocked, amazed, and somewhat saddend by your response. Will you agree that not all divisions in the non-Catholic world are of the petty kind? I would be interested to hear why you think certain issues, such as the issues that allend raised, are irrelevant.

None dare call it heresy?

Pray for John Paul II

[JHavard]

There was no response.

less you think that silence means surrender rather then frustration, here is the reason they were discussing forgiveness of sin. "You forgot to read the preceding verses."

Mt 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
V-16. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
V-17. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
V-18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
V-19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

As it is plain to see, it was a local problem, and it dealt with individual problems in the Church, not eternal forgiveness for salvation.

If your theory is continued to it's end, then according to verse 19, Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
V-20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

By your statements, any two people who come together in the name of the Lord can forgive any sin from any person for anything at any time.

Just think, we don't even need Christ anymore, men can take care of all these small details themselves.

How about this, you two forgive me, and we will forgive you, and between the four of us, we can wipe all sin out of our life for ever. "NOT"

[dignan3]

less you think that silence means surrender rather then frustration, here is the reason they were discussing forgiveness of sin. "You forgot to read the preceding verses."

Mt 18:15 ...

The relevant passage is John 21:21-23 so why your allusion to Matthew?

Pray for John Paul II

[SoothingDave]

less you think that silence means surrender rather then frustration, here is the reason they were discussing forgiveness of sin. "You forgot to read the preceding verses."

I would never equate silence with surrender, I was just diappointed that I got no response. I know I can't respond to everything.

Ah, one of my favorite passages.

Mt 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. V-16. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
V-17. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
V-18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
V-19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

As it is plain to see, it was a local problem, and it dealt with individual problems in the Church, not eternal forgiveness for salvation.

So saith the Gospel According to JHavard.

Can you tell me why, if this was an internal thing in the local church, some dispute, why didn't Jesus tell the people to search the Scriptures for the resolution to the problem? Instead He tells them to "hear the church." How preposterous. It's like Jesus thought there would be something singular known as "the church" which had the authority to settle disputes among Christians. How silly. We know the real solution if the church won't hear you is to start a new church.

By your statements, any two people who come together in the name of the Lord can forgive any sin from any person for anything at any time.

Wouldn't it be wonderful? If we all really could forgive each other like that? To freely dispense forgiveness for even the worst transgressions. It would almost make the Lord's Prayer seem like a good deal. "forgive us ...as we forgive those"

Just think, we don't even need Christ anymore, men can take care of all these small details themselves.

The power of Christ compels you. Jesus is not talking abotu us not needing Him, but rather how we can spread His forgiveness among our people. That you see anything that isn't direct "me and Jesus" as cutting Jesus out of the picture is to not understand the Community of all Believers.

How about this, you two forgive me, and we will forgive you, and between the four of us, we can wipe all sin out of our life for ever. "NOT"

How about this? Jesus actually says that if only two of us agree, anything we ask will be done by Our Father in Heaven. Isn't that amazing? Now if we could only learn to agree. That's the way it is with God. Always a catch.

SD

[dignan3]

From Thread 154:54

Anyone lurking would very quickly learn that there is no true church, no leaders and very little knowledge of what God has said in his word. Jesus taught in parables and I'll wager none here can explain them. Maybe you are capable of responding to a challenge and quit beating yourselves up.

I think we have just witnessed the first example of a "Christian" nihilist. I use the term Christian in the absolute broadest sense when describing vmatt.

See what the Reformation[sic] hath wrought?

Pray for John Paul II

Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in. - Michael Corleone

[JHavard]

The relevant passage is John 21:21-23 so why your allusion to Matthew?

I guess that you have been back in class so long that you have lost the ability to communicate, and I have no idea what your point is, or what you are saying, please interpret.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

I enjoyed your post #120 on the previous thread (155) so much so that I decided to print it out and study it. Gives me something to do while I wait for satisfactory answers to all of Big Mack's questions. Which, doggone it, don't seem to be forthcoming. I'm beginning to the think the Lord will return first. Party on.

[OLD REGGIE]

OK, bass. But that's not an answer. If you buy Havoc's Greek lesson then Our Lord was, in fact, insulting Peter. Rubbing his nose in it. The fact that he was just a tiny insignificant stone, compared to the greatness of Jesus Himself.

The Lord insulted Peter because he didn't make him the Rock upon which he built his Church??????

Compared to the greatness of Jesus Himself who is not just a tiny (I will not use the word "insignificant") stone?

[dignan3]

I guess that you have been back in class so long that you have lost the ability to communicate, and I have no idea what your point is, or what you are saying, please interpret.

With pleasure. Angelo quoted John 20:22-23:

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

You said, in response to Soothing Dave, to look at the preceeding verses. You then quoted Matthew 18:15-19. The events described in John and Matthew are not the same, hence my question.

Pray for John Paul II

[SoothingDave]

Hey Reggie. Good day! Can you compare my #38 with the definition of Sola Scriptura you just posted on the last thread? To see if I have a grasp of things.

Thanks. SD

[SoothingDave]

You said John 21 initially. Which has seemingly no bearing on the discussion. Probably the source of confusion.

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Hi Steven! Glad you're feeling better. Go ahead and repeat yourself; everyone else here does! ;o)

I think what I meant to say is that when I'm less than a hundred percent its hard to repeat myself. I can parrott as well as the next person. :-) (my kids can attest to that)

[SoothingDave]

It should also be pointed out that in both John and in Matthew Jesus is giving the power to forgive sins not to the general audience of all Christians. But rather, to the apostles, as is made abundantly clear in the John version with the locked room.

Hence the idea of any two run-of-the-mill Christians empowered to forgive all sins becomes moot. It was not a general gift to all, but a power given to the apostles and their successors.

SD

[dignan3]

You said John 21 initially. Which has seemingly no bearing on the discussion. Probably the source of confusion.

Sorry, my fault. Stinking typos!

Ora pro Ioannes Paulus II

[SoothingDave]

I enjoyed your post #120 on the previous thread (155) so much so that I decided to print it out and study it.

Hey Steven. Hope you're feeling better. Do you think if you ask him nice Havoc might autograph it for ya? Maybe he'll send you a photo you can put up on your wall. ;-)

(Just given you a good reason to "pump up" your posting numbers)

SD

[the808bass]

The words are distinct in the Greek, but not in the Hebrew, in which Matthew wrote

While I am not arguing about the Petra/Petros debate, it is absolutely a flight of fancy to pretend that we know that Matthew wrote in Hebrew. It is far from a settled subject.

[the808bass]

I'm assuming you mean that the name change did not give Peter the ability to forgive sins? Because he and the other apostles were, elsewhere in the gospels, certainly given this authority by Jesus.

I disagree. They were given the authority to proclaim what had already happened in heaven. Big difference.

[OLD REGGIE]

16 yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Gee whizz, Paul not only rebukes Peter but he says we can be justified by faith alone. THE HERETIC

Rom 2:13. For not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

We Catholics have no problem reconciling those two statements. Let's see you do it.

============================================================

Romans 2:

13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them

16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

===========================================================

What's to reconcile? Let's not get into the stupid argument what "works" is.

Perhaps you can give your definition of what "work" is necessary to be a "doer" of the law.