less you think that silence means surrender rather then frustration, here is the reason they were discussing forgiveness of sin. "You forgot to read the preceding verses."
Mt 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
V-16. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
V-17. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
V-18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
V-19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
As it is plain to see, it was a local problem, and it dealt with individual problems in the Church, not eternal forgiveness for salvation.
If your theory is continued to it's end, then according to verse 19, Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
V-20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
By your statements, any two people who come together in the name of the Lord can forgive any sin from any person for anything at any time.
Just think, we don't even need Christ anymore, men can take care of all these small details themselves.
How about this, you two forgive me, and we will forgive you, and between the four of us, we can wipe all sin out of our life for ever. "NOT"
Mt 18:15 ...
The relevant passage is John 21:21-23 so why your allusion to Matthew?
Pray for John Paul II
I would never equate silence with surrender, I was just diappointed that I got no response. I know I can't respond to everything.
Ah, one of my favorite passages.
Mt 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. V-16. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
V-17. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
V-18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
V-19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
As it is plain to see, it was a local problem, and it dealt with individual problems in the Church, not eternal forgiveness for salvation.
So saith the Gospel According to JHavard.
Can you tell me why, if this was an internal thing in the local church, some dispute, why didn't Jesus tell the people to search the Scriptures for the resolution to the problem? Instead He tells them to "hear the church." How preposterous. It's like Jesus thought there would be something singular known as "the church" which had the authority to settle disputes among Christians. How silly. We know the real solution if the church won't hear you is to start a new church.
By your statements, any two people who come together in the name of the Lord can forgive any sin from any person for anything at any time.
Wouldn't it be wonderful? If we all really could forgive each other like that? To freely dispense forgiveness for even the worst transgressions. It would almost make the Lord's Prayer seem like a good deal. "forgive us ...as we forgive those"
Just think, we don't even need Christ anymore, men can take care of all these small details themselves.
The power of Christ compels you. Jesus is not talking abotu us not needing Him, but rather how we can spread His forgiveness among our people. That you see anything that isn't direct "me and Jesus" as cutting Jesus out of the picture is to not understand the Community of all Believers.
How about this, you two forgive me, and we will forgive you, and between the four of us, we can wipe all sin out of our life for ever. "NOT"
How about this? Jesus actually says that if only two of us agree, anything we ask will be done by Our Father in Heaven. Isn't that amazing? Now if we could only learn to agree. That's the way it is with God. Always a catch.
SD