Posted on 09/26/2001 8:12:13 PM PDT by Doctor Freeze
Recently, I had to listen to a Christian liberal give his views on U.S. retaliation. He basically stated that the U.S. has no right to retaliate because nobody keeps the U.S. accountable for its own "sins" and that Christians should be pacifists.
He also says the U.S. supports countries such as Saudi Arabia that oppresses its citizens and that the U.S. also supports the oppression of Palestinians! He says Jesus would not approve of the U.S. retaliating.
Any comments?
from "Good War" at http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0110/articles/cole.html
One good crack shot upon his head should to the trick .
Cheese .
First of all, try leading him to Christ. I'm sure there are a few ignorant Christian liberals (i.e. they don't really follow politics and are clueless), but in general they don't exist, and just claim to be Christians (I’m not trying to judge, these have just been my observations). Second, have him read Romans 13 where it explains that God works through nations and rulers to judge those that rebel against authority, basically saying that it's the nation's place to carry out God's justice. As individuals, turn the other cheek, but not as a nation. And third, Jesus does not like to see his people persecuted.
You have got to be kidding. We haven't killed a SINGLE baby. If you're trying to blame sanctions on Iraq on us, you are gravely mistaken. One person holds the blame - Sadam. If he stuck to the things he agreed to at the end of the war, there would not be any sanctions (except military). To blame us because he chooses to keep all Iraq's money for himself, and not help his people is ludicrous. You have really bought into the Middle Eastern propaganda hook line, and sinker. I feel pity for you.
Remind him that Bin Laden and these terrorists have sworn to not stop until they destroy our civilization. How can you negotiate a peace agreement with someone who doesn't want peace.
Christ in discussion with the Roman soldier said nothing about trying to leave the service at the first opportunity; seemed to encourage responsibly doing his job while putting God first. Conjecture, to be sure but plausible.
Personally, I encourage people to count the costs of their choices. If they are convinced that God's best for them is to be 100% peaceful and they are willing for their loved ones and themselves etc. to be painfully obliterated for such choices, at least they have gone into such an eventuality thoughtfully and hopefully very prayerfully.
AND, history and such groups and individuals have 100's of anecdotal stories of how God eventually worked all such to good--often enough even for those involved.
But that takes enormous faith. Part of me suspects it it the faith that produces the good result as much as if not more than the peace focus. But "Blessed are the Peacemakers" is the declaration of The One who created all that is. There is something there.
ON THE OTHER HAND, The Scripture also says "the righteous" take [territory? victory? --it's not clear] "by force." We don't know precisely what that means. But it doesn't sound like praying under a table while guerrillas bash the doors down and rape everyone in sight.
Certainly there is a place for and God clearly does use authorities, nations He places in power to discipline even His church. . . . AS WELL AS CLEARLY TO ROUT EVIL. But on the whole, I believe He expects His church as individuals and collectively to OVERCOME EVIL WITH GOOD.
Personally, I hated killing deer for family food growing up. Pain and death are no fun for me. But I have a hard time imagining me standing idly by if there were anything I could do to lessen, prevent, exact punishment for serious abuse and pain dished out to those I loved--especially the less fortunate, the weak, the ill, the young, the defenseless.
God is not in favor of cowardice. He lumps them in with those guilty of some of the worst sins He mentions--from His perspective--and given that He's the Boss--His perspective rather counts for a lot.
Perhaps it depends on one's motivation. If it's cowardice, looking for approval and reward from God may be less a simple thing than one expected. But true, authentic pacifism is anything but cowardly. It takes an uncommon toughness to stick to one's convictions while seeing one's wife or daughter raped. . . . and to trust in Faith that God WILL work that event out for good for the wife, the daughter, yourself and the situation. But God is faithful toward such faith. Willingness to pay the price is essential.
What I don't have much respect or time for is the sort of pacifist who claims that orientation and then is absolutely lazy about the spiritual disciplines and spiritual warfare to allow God to do what He would prefer to do in the situation.
The idea that pacifism is a good way to avoid bood camp stresses and more risk, harder work, more pain and toil--is an ignorant, stupid idea. The spiritual warfare can often be excruciating and very tough and drawn out. There's no escape. Individuals will pay one piper or the other or suffer the consequences now and hereafter. There is no free lunch for FREEDOM.
It cost Christ His Blood and Life. It has cost the lives and blood of many martyrs. Most of the freedoms we enjoy as Americans originated in those battles, those foundations of Freedom--from those beliefs and the groups that held them most dearly and acted them out most courageously.
It's a very distasteful flavor of disingenuous yuckky mush to brashly rail about the superiority and essentialness of pacifism while being quick to run and hide under the gun of the nearest Marine when someone says "Boo!" I can't imagine that God is amused or pleased.
The pacifism I can respect is that which becomes a medic and rushes to the front lines gunless to help one's comrades. . . . the kind that falls on the grenade to protect one's platoon.
PEACE AT ANY PRICE is not pacifism. It's a particularly insane form of cowardice. . . . and it's never peace for very long.
I think another key issue here is WHAT IS GOD SAYING in the situation? What is HIS ROLE for you as an individual, for your family, church, neighborhood, city, country? We can't judge what our proper behavior should be without knowing what our fitting goals are.
I praise God for those He has led to stand without violence for right in crucial historic places and times. Ghandi made a rather powerful point.
I also Praise God for 1776; for victory over slavery; for success in WWII. I praise God it wasn't Hitler that ended up with the A-bomb first. I praise God for R Reagan and his horse sense about a strong U.S. military.
I have no need to be haughty and judgmental toward pacifists nor militarists. Each can have a Godly role. I don't answer to God for them, I answre for me. What would He have me do?
I suspect that when all is said and done, I'll mostly most of the time have taken the peaceful, non-violent route--even at great pain, suffering and even death. But I wouldn't be at all surprised nor regretful to have protected weak and defenseless ones with fierce violence if the situation presented itself.
God is moving all creation to the place where the lion and lamb will sleep together and both eat grass. . . and the toddler play with a cobra. It will be wonderful when the source of violence has been imprisoned beyond influence.
But we are not in that context yet. For now, we must be either fiercely consistent and skilled in spiritual warfare pacifists or fiercely potent soldiers.
As Texans might say:
THERE'S NOTHING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD BUT A YELLOW STRIPE AND DEAD ARMADILLOS.
Or a bit more clearly:
THERE'S NOTHING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD BUT A YELLOW STRIPE AND DEAD ARMADILLOS.
We all have to take a stand--and choosing to not take a stand has taken one.
"Get thee behind me, Satan."
The American Government isn't a Christian Organization. Mixing Government with religion gets you a government like those of IRAN or Afghanistan.
Apt!!
Why did you think that?
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