My Church's reponse disturbing.

[fly_so_free]

I went to Mass tonight and did not find the comfort I was seeking. To make a long story short, I'll tell you what bugged me the most about it.

The Pastor was talking about how the love of Jesus is shown in what people do for others, he mentioned the rescue workers but then he said it's shown when a father shows love instead of anger to his teenage daughter who has just told him she's pregnant, and then he said the love of Jesus is shown when a child writes to a death row inmate. There was no American flag in or out side of the Church. I was trying to keep my cool, but by the time Mass ended I said to the Lord, "If this doesn't end with some kind of Patriotic song , "I'm outta here." We sang God bless America as the closing song. The sad thing is the church was absolutely packed with people(more than I've ever seen) but the service was so flat, I don't know if all the people will come back next week.

The church I mentioned is not my usual church, but I have to go there because they are the closest one with a 6pm Sunday mass (thiss is the only time I can go because I work all weekend)

My usual church had a disturbing incident (according to my cousin) He said he went to Mass and at the part where you pray for people the lady asked the church to pray for Usama Bin Laden and our attackers. Both of these masses had lots of "we need to pray for peace-mustn't act in vengence- talks. My cousin said when the lady asked for the Bin laden prayer only about 1/3 of the church said the "LORD HEAR OUR PRAYER" response. A letter from Archbishop Mahony said "Let us be mindful to avoid unsupported speculation and to refrain from harmful stereo types" wich I think is in English but I'm not sure what he's getting at.

I watched the replay on Fox news of the attacks and I started thinking : What would Jesus do/say? As the famous question says. As the WTC collasped and the Pentagon burned and all the greiving families were shown, I said to myself: Are they really trying to tell me that Jesus, when confronted with all this terrible pain and greiving would really tell people to Pray for their attckers and to hell with their feelings ?

I mean there is turn the other cheek , but did he mean it in this way? Hitler would have won WWII if we turned the other cheek. The Jewish people turned the other cheek and 6 million were murdered.

I wonder how may people returned to church for the 1st time in a long time and were turned off by this. I wonder if there were any people in the church who lost family members, and might not come back because of the ladies Pray for Bin Laden comment. I think of Jesus's response to Lazarous's death as a clue. He (Jesus) knew he could raise Lazarous from the dead, and yet when he comes upon the greiving people it makes him cry. I've always thought this passage was unusual but also comforting. It seems to say that Jesus really does understand the pain of people greiving, and he didn't say anything preachy .

The reason I've said this is I want to confront the Pastor (he's a good friend of mine) about the whole Pray for Bin Laden thing. I find it down right offensive.

[VRWC_minion]

This woman sounds like a goofy old liberal broad

She sounds to me like a good Christian.

[AmishDude]

The point is that you do this to protect innocents, not to satisfy some vengence.

Any military action will be taken to prevent future atrocities from happening by (1) taking out the perpetrators and their infrastructure and (2) to make the cost too high for people to do this again.

It will not be about vengance. Proof? We haven't done anything yet, and it's been 6 days.

[AMMON-CENTRIST]

As Christians we are suppose to do that.

[gulfcoast6]

Amen my friend, so very true. May God Bless.

[fdcc]

See post 60 for some of the Church's relevant teaching.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

...post-modern idea that love is always "warm & fuzzy". It's not. In fact, Biblical love is oftentimes downright harsh. We've forgotten that

Amen!

People that want warm and fuzzy should put a peach in the microwave!

Wish people would understand this goes with raising children too!

Anyway, thanks for a great reply.

Becky

[Ted]

Vengence is mine, says the Lord.

[PresbyRev]

I went to an ecumenical prayer service on last Thursday noon and was disturbed by the 'forgive and forget' attitude of the clergy leading the thing. So, I included in my homily on Sunday the story told by Simon Wiesenthal of being called, while in the concentration camp during WW II, to the deathbed of an SS guard. The SS man asks Simon , as a representative Jew if you will, for forgiveness for participating in mass murder, in shooting down great #s of Jews. Simon says he can hear the confession but cannot forgive him on the part of those he has killed. Only the murdered can forgive their murderer.

Such calls to forgive the terrorists who have brutally murdered innocent men, women, children and babies is the most perverse sort of 'proxy forgiveness'. It is offering what you cannot offer, it is the worst kind of 'cheap grace'. It is pious sentiment without regard for justice or God's Law. It ignores Scripture, the teachings of Jesus and Church tradition, and substitutes a boomer, hippie mentality that, I submit, got us in this situation vis a vis the great boomer himself, Bubba jeff.

Just my own thoughts as a just turned 28, Gen X PCUSA minister.

[mc5cents]

Our wifes/children/husbands have been killed, and more to the point the terrorists ARE holding a gun to the head of more family members. I WILL defend my family, and will do so, I pray, with God's righteous anger.

That is exactly right, and righteous. A very good analogy. God's anger can and will act through us. In the words of the Battle Hymn of the Republic, "He has loosed the fateful lightening of His terrible swift sword His truth is marching on."

I pray, God be with us and protect us. Amen.

[AppyPappy]

It's too easy for me to forgive the men who brought down the WTC because they didn't do anything to me personally. It's a "cheap" forgiveness. That's why Jesus mentions forgiveness as a personal act (turn the other cheek). Also, I don't recall Jesus asking people to forgive the dead (another cheap forgiveness IMHO).

[ClancyJ]

I too was disappointed in mine. The parking lots were fuller than every before, every seat taken and a traffic jam getting to church. Yet, we were then presented with a sermon more in line for long time Christians. Our minister has been the reason I attended that church - his words always so right on and so powerful. This Sunday I didn't find what I was seeking and I am fearful that many of those there will not ever be back.

Even the songs chosen did not inspire. I would have loved to have sung the Battle Hymn of the Republic, heard words to explain how God sees such atrocities, why they happen and how we handle them. I'm sure many coming were hoping for something similar - but they didn't get it this day.

[wita]

In Germany during both great wars, the clergy of both sides blessed the soldiers. It is that irony that drives many Germans of those generations to the woods for their God. Those that are still living that is. Mein Gott ist die Natur.

[VRWC_minion]

Mathew

Love Your Enemies
^{* 43} "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' ⁴⁴But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,

[farmer18th]

I've often found it interesting that Jesus used the "turn the other cheek" example and "carry the extra mile" example. These were instances of slight injustice from every day life. He didn't say, "if your enemy rapes your little sister, hand over your daughter as well." He didn't say, "if your enemy burns your barn, show him where your house is as well."

Your pastor, like thousands of every denomination around the country, is a well-meaning dolt who doesn't know the Bible. Get angry with him and tell other parishioners as well that if your pastor doesn't believe in a God of justice, he's not worshiping the same God you worship.

[chit*chat]

I think that if we follow your pastor's advice, soon there will be no cheeks left to turn. We will all be anhiliated.

[farmer18th]

love your enemies..

Jesus understood that love to mean being willing to call them snakes and vipers when appropriate and destroying their businesses when they desecrate the temple. You need to make sure you understand how God uses the term love. These silly, effeminate (a Biblical sin by the way) priests who blather on about forgiveness in this context are servants of the Devil, not the Lord.

[farmer18th]

We will all be anhiliated.

If we follow yours, all our children will be killed by Anthrax Compassion with maniacs is not Biblical.