New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of human origins

PHYS.ORG ^

[FarCenter]

A new fossil ape from an 8.7-million-year-old site in Türkiye is challenging long-accepted ideas of human origins and adding weight to the theory that the ancestors of African apes and humans evolved in Europe before migrating to Africa between nine and seven million years ago.

Analysis of a newly identified ape named Anadoluvius turkae recovered from the Çorakyerler fossil locality near Çankırı with the support of the Ministry of Culture and Tourism in Türkiye, shows Mediterranean fossil apes are diverse and are part of the first known radiation of early hominines—the group that includes African apes (chimpanzees, bonobos and gorillas), humans and their fossil ancestors.

The findings are described in a study published today in Communications Biology co-authored by an international team of researchers led by Professor David Begun at the University of Toronto (U of T) and Professor Ayla Sevim Erol at Ankara University.

"Our findings further suggest that hominines not only evolved in western and central Europe but spent over five million years evolving there and spreading to the eastern Mediterranean before eventually dispersing into Africa, probably as a consequence of changing environments and diminishing forests," said Begun, professor in the Department of Anthropology in the Faculty of Arts & Science at U of T. "The members of this radiation to which Anadoluvius belongs are currently only identified in Europe and Anatolia."

[Mr. Blond]

The theory doesn’t hold that man evolved from modern apes, just that we have a common ancestor, from whom paths diverged.

[Tilapiafish2]

I also believe in free will. But maybe more of an emergent quality from physical reality rather than from a supernatural source. Hopefully we can talk later on in this subject

[Openurmind]

After many years of research I now believe the Summerian’s account of creation is correct. It is the oldest account of creation before adulteration and corresponds with many ancient “oral” accounts from around the world. The account of the Australian aborigines is the same. Far too many coincidences of the same story. Our own ignorance is to discredit oral stories as just primitive myth. When metaphorically the tell the very same story of our creation. There is no way these stories can be discredited as plagiarism when the same story comes from ancient cultures all over the world who did not know each other even existed.

[Openurmind]

Sumerian’s

[Tilapiafish2]

Graham Hancock had interesting books about how the grand coulee flood and others at the end of the ice age somewhat line up with the late bronze age flood myths. Even to the point that the Mediterranean Sea might have been a sudden collapsing of a natural dam around the time of the bronze age collpae. The more I see though, the less likely the evidence seems to point to a worldwide sudden flood. I think it’s probably just a big fear of of nature’s eventa, like the religion of climate change now to make the cause real and human caused

[Openurmind]

“The more I see though, the less likely the evidence seems to point to a worldwide sudden flood.”

Unless? It happened globally at the dawn of the last inter-glacial which was suddenly warmer than it is even now. Perspective is important. The stories of ancient advanced civilizations before this last ice age getting flooded very well could be true. Geology supports it, and hold over ancient oral stories from around the world may very well support it. We need to look at it from a view of a much longer timeline.

Here is a perspective for you... If “evolutionary” man is over 2 million years old. Then this means primitive man has survived through like 32 ice ages because they were much more frequent and have now been coming at longer intervals in the very regular cycle. Incredible perspective when you realize the last ice age was not the only one. Man did not begin after the last ice age.

Is it possible that even before that timeline there was an advanced civilization that existed simultaneously with primitive man? Right now in our age of technology there are still isolated pockets of primitive cultures around the world. It can never be claimed that at in every time period in history every culture was equal in knowledge and advancement.

Simply not true, even now...

[Tilapiafish2]

The best evidence against any earlier advanced civilization to me are the lack of plastics in the record. The relatively primitive cave paintings from before 10k bc just do not picture anything beyond mostly wild animal hunting scenes. That also. Shows up in petroglyphs in the Americas. I think the advabces of man are semi linear. Small groups did amazing small works like cave paintings and gobleke tepe. Then larger and more advanced with time. I don’t see the need for any supernatural or unrealistic interventions

[imardmd1]

You are saying "By death came man." But the Bible inarguably says, "By man came death."

And it is for that truth is why a Savior from sin and death is needed. FRiend, you cannot have both. You are not reasoning very well, certainly not well enough to be heard again.

You have no fact and you have no faith. Now, translating Paul's God-inspired epistle to the dispersed Jews of Hebrew origin, he says, "Without faith it is impossible to please God."

Where does that leave you as a theorist?

[Tilapiafish2]

Were those that died before Jesus saved? I’ve never seen a compelling biblical argument that they’d not be. And it ignorance is death, then what makes you so special? Nothing for just buying the theism. But sheer chance.

[Cronos]

Türkiye ‘Turk-land’ is a native Turkish word.

Erdogan decreed that the English name for Turkiye/Turkey should be, in official documents, the same as the Turkish word for Turkiye/Turkey.

Note that
1. It’s a fairly new endonym - dating from 1920 — prior to that, the state was Devlet-i ʿAlīye-i ʿOsmānīye, - the Ottoman state.

2. I don’t particularly care for this political name stunt - it isn’t logical like Iran asking us not to refer to it by one of its provinces (Persia) or the Netherlands asking English speakers the same or Myanmar doing so

[Cronos]

2nd Amendment Recent discoveries by so called scientists tell us dinosaurs kept soft tissue for 65 million years

Sorry, what do you mean? AFAIK there was just one instance in which soft tissue was allegedly found in a fossil. I'm not sure if that has been fully accepted as accurate yet

[Cronos]

If we look at the dates of fossils we do find that the Americas and Australia had humans last.

We also see this among animals that evolved to evade humans (in Africa and to some extent Eurasia) and those that didn't - in the Americas and Australia.

Also genetically we are one species down to the genetic level. But the MOST divergent people, genetically speaking, are the Khoi-San (Bushmen) -- they are genetically more distinct from West Africans than those West Africans are from Irish people

The "Out of Africa" hypothesis seems valid so far - note that this means NOTHING in terms of modern-day peoples.

[Cronos]

Man did not evolve from apes.

That is not the statement - the statement is that modern humans (homo sapiens) and modern apes (whether gibbons or chimpanzees or bonobos or gorillas or orangutans) all derived from a common ancestor

[Tilapiafish2]

It seems valid so far and is probably true. But there ae weird evidences of human early migration that may.. May not line up. I doubt any major changes in the theories but I don’t think it’s fully settled

[Cronos]

The Sumerian account of creation differs from teh Australian aboriginal.

Sumerian: According to the Sumerian story “Enki and Ninmah,” the lesser gods, burdened with the toil of creating the earth, complained to Namma, the primeval mother, about their hard work. She in turn roused her son Enki, the god of wisdom, and urged him to create a substitute to free the gods from their toil.

Australian aborigine: The Aboriginals believed that the entire world was made by their Ancestors way back in the very beginning of time, the Dreamtime.

I don’t see this related to other creation myths - especially the Indo-European one.

[Cronos]

It would never be fully settled as we’ll never have 100% proof. But we have close to that % in terms of fossils, genetics and linguistics.

If we take the alternative approach of elimination - where else could homo sapiens have developed?
1. Australia? Nah - no migration patterns in reverse and humans don’t exist there pre 40KYA
2. the Americas? Nah - again, humans in the Americas are relatively recent as witnessed in the archaeological record. Plus genetically the native Americans are far too close to have been the uhrmheit of homo sapiens
3. Eurasia - possible, but then we have the pygmies and Khoisan who are genetically distinct and also separated from other homo sapiens for thousands of years. How could they have arrived from Eurasia?

But probably mixing with other members of the homo genus like Denisovans, Neanderthalis etc.

[Tilapiafish2]

And also, as we used to call them the pygmies and aboriginal aussies are needed to be studied as the fringes of what can be considered homo sapien sapiens. I imagine up until 100k years ago there were similae breeds of people that met and mated. Knowing how horny males can be, if they produce offspring it’ll happen

[ought-six]

“You are saying ‘By death came man.’ But the Bible inarguably says, ‘By man came death.’”

So, your argument is that there was no death before man. The dinosaurs will be glad to hear that, as will the myriad other creatures and life forms whose fossilized remains have been found over millenia. Oh, wait: They can’t hear that; they are dead.

“And it is for that truth is why a Savior from sin and death is needed.”

Oh, so no one has died since Jesus Christ? That would explain overpopulation.

“FRiend, you cannot have both.”

You are assuming I am claiming both. You sound like a leftist, or a religious fanatic, as you assume things too readily, jump to conclusions, and rush to judgment.

“You are not reasoning very well, certainly not well enough to be heard again.”

Nice try, kid. It is YOU who doesn’t reason well. You said that death came about as a result of man (”By man came death). Thus, you are saying that there was no death prior to man; but because of man, death came upon the world (i.e., man is the sole cause of death and bears sole responsibility for death). And you say that I can’t reason well? ‘Tis to laugh.

“You have no fact and you have no faith.”

Au contraire. I have both. You see, if one believes in something, one must necessarily have faith that that belief is true; or else one is just navel-gazing.

“Now, translating Paul’s God-inspired epistle to the dispersed Jews of Hebrew origin...”

How do you KNOW that Paul’s epistle was God-inspired? Either you have some direct, first-hand knowledge of that divine inspiration, that was unique to Paul; or you have to conclude that Paul was divinely inspired because EVERYONE is divinely inspired.

“Where does that leave you as a theorist?”

Far closer to reality than you are.

[Cronos]

Aboriginal Australians have been studied genetically. They aren’t that far removed from the rest of the Eurasian peoples.

In fact I think the Australoids were considered a group of Caucasoid people by skull structure (not sure about this).

Genetically, the Australian aborigines are the final end point of a migration that went from Africa, through the south of the Arabian peninsula, coastline of India, Burma, to Malaysia, Indonesia, Papua etc.

the Papuans are genetically related to the Australian Aborigines as are the Sentinelese and to a lesser extent the Mon-Khmer

“I imagine up until 100k years ago there were similae breeds of people that met and mated. Knowing how horny males can be, if they produce offspring it’ll happen” —> true - single and ready to mingle

[Tilapiafish2]

Man you are echoing a lot of my theist concerns. I want to believe when we die we spend forever in peace. But as I age and see how reality is an emergent property of physics.. It’s hard. I don’t believe in any Jesus but maybe there is something more?