Posted on 06/17/2023 6:48:57 AM PDT by JonPreston
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy warned in a television interview on Thursday that the United States could face the "collapse of NATO" or a direct conflict with Russia if Ukraine does not win the war.
"Is he ready to go to war? To fight, to send his kids? Are they ready to die?" Zelenskyy asked. "Because anyway, they will have to do this if NATO gets involved."
Former President Donald Trump, the Republican frontrunner in the 2024 presidential election, would not commit to supporting Ukraine in its war against Russia, during a CNN town hall last month. Instead, Trump pledged to end the war within 24 hours.
(Excerpt) Read more at msn.com ...
Query:
Stepping back a bit, one observes that this is a USA Today article being amplified through MSN, so the media is "all in" in this moment is pointing to something. The question then is -- to what?
The article quotes Z: " 'If Ukraine would lose, if Russia would occupy Ukraine, Russia will continue going toward Baltic countries, Poland, etcetera,' he said. 'They will start war with one of the NATO countries and at this moment the United States will have to choose the collapse of NATO or go to war'."
The architecture of this argument reminds me, once in olive drab under LBJ, of the "domino theory" pushed by the Democrat Party and much later rather repudiated by McNamara while peddling his memoirs,
I am sure that there are those on FR who think Russia will, in Z's words, "continue going toward Baltic countries, Poland, etcetera." But observe the wiggle. "Toward" is not "into" and "occupy." And there also those on FR who think Russia will not do as Z foretells.
It does sound like a geopolitical policy sales pitch, rather like our justifications for being in Vietnam for about 20 years, as for being in Afghanistan for about 20 years. Robert McNamara? Anyone remember the dominoes falling? What we know is that since that time, Vietnam won the Vietnam war because we lost it. And Afghanistan won the Afghanistan war because we lost it.
An excerpt:
---- "Corruption, religious differences, and mounting successes by the Vietcong guerrillas weakened the South Vietnamese government of Ngo Dinh Diem. Diem was Catholic, and public protests over the repression of Buddhists threatened the stability of his regime. Kennedy accelerated the flow of American aid and gradually increased U.S. military advisers to more than 16,000. At the same time, he pressed the Diem government to clean house and institute long-overdue political and economic reforms.
---- The situation did not improve. In September of 1963, President Kennedy declared in an interview, "In the final analysis, it is their war. They are the ones who have to win it or lose it. We can help them, we can give them equipment, we can send our men out there as advisers, but they have to win it, the people of Vietnam, against the Communists... But I don't agree with those who say we should withdraw. That would be a great mistake... [The United States] made this effort to defend Europe. Now Europe is quite secure. We also have to participate—we may not like it—in the defense of Asia."
Source: https://www.jfklibrary.org/learn/about-jfk/jfk-in-history/vietnam
So in the light of our history and Robert McNamara: Z says "If Ukraine loses, U.S. must choose between the collapse of NATO or going to war."
Because there are no other alternatives? Either-or?
Well the end of the JFK article under the heading "A Domino Falls," says "In January 1975, North Vietnam began massive invasions of South Vietnam. A few months later, the North Vietnamese captured the capital city of Saigon, and the last Americans were evacuated from the US embassy. The American war in Vietnam was over. More than 3 million Vietnamese and 58,000 Americans had lost their lives."
Question --- who won? And who wants to play "the geopolitical policy sales pitch game"? They're lining up now....
Agree. NATO is the US’s fave power tool. No way will we give it up. As for other NATO members, no way will they give it up either. The EU might well not have happened anyway if not for NATO. Foolish talk on the part of Zelensky, but suits “the narrative” and lots of fools will believe it. :(
No. Americans have to choose between keeping the Ukraine Money Laundry open for Western politicians or dying in a nuclear holocaust.
Correct. Considering our massive deficit, at some juncture, loss of the petrodollar/dollar as reserve currency could well be catastrophic. It won’t happen anytime soon (as some doomsayers predict), but it could well be on the distant horizon. Foolish neocons.
The latest issue of National Geographic, which should be renamed Enviro-Globalist Propaganda, has a chart showing the money given by various agencies to the Ukraine conflict:
46.6 billion - USA
6.1 billion - NATO
5.1 billion - U.K.
2.5 billion - Poland
2.5 billion - Germany
1.4 billion - Canada
1.2 billion - non-NATO
I think this entitled little homosexual has worn out his welcome.
False choices.
And if NATO collapses — it has outlived its usefulness.
Adios NATO!
Yeah, so?
Having a hard time seeing the problem here.
Let the Krauts and the Limeys and the Frogs et al work it out.
Biden's Administration should tell NATO and Ukraine to figure it out.
BUT, they will likely meet Putin's threat of using nukes, with their own stupid counter-threat.
I'm seeing it's very hard to collapse an Empire as wealthy and as powerful as we are, it's happening in stages. The speed of collapse will increase as the end nears.
Again correct. Isn’t there some famous quote about going bankrupt “at first gradually and then all the sudden”?
Ah, yes, there is! It’s from Hemingway’s The Sun Also Rises.
Uhm...hey, Z, buddy...you are not a part of NATO.
Your threat is empty.
No.
Biden is a puppet of the "Cabal". He makes no important decisions. He does read some of those decisions from a teleprompter when he is able to do so. The Cabal has Biden on a leash.
Whatever deals Zelensky is getting are being made with senior representatives of the Cabal. He does not control them in any way. The Cabal does have substantial interests in a Russian defeat and there are most likely some astonishing grift opportunities from the "aid" that is going to the Ukrainian government. That is why Zelensky keeps getting a hearing.
Say, what is this about photos of the Mexican cartel fighters showing up with AT-4s? I thought those antitank weapons were supposed to have been shipped to the Ukraine army. Things that make you go "WTF?".
I guess it is "10% for the big guy", and "some of the shipments just fell off the back of a truck".
When Ukraine loses how long will it take Vladimir Putin to release the hard evidence of Pedo-Joe's influence peddling to Ukraine?
That would be of very little importance, should the Russians prevail. A minor propaganda campaign at best, for which they don't really need hard evidence. Besides, most of that "hard evidence" will have been destroyed by the war.
Might be better to track down all the former Ukrainian officials who have retreated to their secured villas in France or Florida.
There is a difference between an empire's collapse and a nation's collapse. Most of the colonial empires of the past are now collapsed, and yet the countries remain. So many in Europe were empires, and the UK pretends its commonwealth as the global geopolitics changes.
I suspect there is a solid nation -- ours -- with a solid Constitution, and a frail, doddering and now angry "empire" which is the MIC and deep state bureaucracy, fighting for relevance all the while screwing over ordinary Americans at an increasing rate.
Here on FR so many are still aligned to the "empire" for reasons of their own, and will become all the more angry as time passes. My wife and I are fully confident that the Constitutional "these United States" will survive, for having seen first hand the aftermath of another empire or two having died, i.e. the USSR and specifically the DDR. Our once East German friends testify that an "empire" can die and a nation live on.
Persevere.
That’s easy. Good riddance to NATO/GloboHomo
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