Ukraine ammunition depot reportedly hit in wave of Russian missile attacks

The Guardian ^ | 5/1/23 | Peter Beaumont

[dominusobiscum]

I dont consider Trump “right”. He us Populist, which is not the same.

Goto to DU and discover for yourself where the rank and file leftists stand.

And votes in Congress for funding Ukraine had ovwrwhelming left and right support.

[BroJoeK]

freeandfreezing #43: "“Since when it is the responsibility of the United States to stop tyrannical dictators from launching wars and engaging in terrorism?”

Buwaya #50: "Because that is the point of post-WW2 US grand strategy.
Its a policy that goes back three generations now.
That is, if the tyrannical dictator is dangerous enough. Putin et al qualify.
The US said, explicitly and implicitly, that it would prevent WW2 from happening again."

Its All Over Except ... #68: "The US is not world cop.
It goes against the US constitution and the vision of the Founders.
And neocons love being world cop."

Philippines' everyman, Juan dela Cruz, here shown fighting communism, circa 1950s, US Information Service poster.

Historically, US foreign policy was never about "neocons", because there were no "neocons" in 1950 when the NoKos invaded South Korea or in the 1960s when North Vietnam invaded South Vietnam.
The word to describe US foreign policy in 1950 was "containment", first expressed by US diplomat George Kennan in 1947 working for Secretary of State Forestal and Democrat President Truman.
"Containment" is the doctrine used to justify our response in the Korean War and our defensive guarantees to Taiwan, among many others.

In the 1950s, under Republican President Eisenhower, "containment" was US national policy, having nothing to do with Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal, "left" or "right" wing.

Around 1962 a previously implied doctrine was first expressed openly -- Mutually Assured Destruction, or MAD, the term was coined at the conservative Hudson Institute by strategist Donald Brennan.
Brennan intended the term ironically, meaning it's pure madness to threaten mutual destruction, but the term stuck, and nobody forgot its irony.

Still, in the 1960s there were no "neocons" since both Republicans and Democrats, conservatives and liberals supported "containment" and "MAD".
Proof is: in 1964, among those urging Pres. Lyndon Johnson to increase US support for South Vietnam was Mr. Conservative Republican himself, Arizona Senator Barry Goldwater.
Goldwater was then a lifelong conservative Republican, his book was, "The Conscience of a Conservative", in which he defined the word "conservative".
Goldwater was accused by Democrats of wanting to start a nuclear war.
Goldwater was not a "neocon".

The bipartisanship held until Vietnam and, roughly, 1968, when radical young Democrats turned against the war, and the doctrine used to justify it -- "containment".
By 1972 these anti-war, anti-containment radical Democrats had taken over their party, but their presidential candidate, George McGovern, was defeated in a landslide by Richard Nixon, a moderate Republican who continued to support both containment and MAD.

Now we first begin to see so-called neo-conservatives, Democrats who felt as Ronald Reagan said, "I didn't leave the Democrat party, they left me".
These former Democrats helped boost both Richard Nixon in 1972 and Ronald Reagan in 1980 and 1984 to landslide victories over "progressive" Democrats.

But here's the key point -- Eisenhower, Nixon, Reagan and the Bushes were not "neocons", they were moderate-to-conservative Republicans who supported Democrat Pres. Truman's national policy of "containment" for many years after most Democrats had wandered off into pro-communist progressive insanities.

So, when did conservatives first begin to abandon "containment"?
Well, obviously, when the old Soviet Union fell, circa 1990, followed by China seeming to become more peaceful, during the 1990s, then "containment" and "MAD" began to seem unnecessary, expensive and risky -- and we began to hear a few Republicans, not just leftist Democrats, saying, "the US is not the world's policeman."

So when did some conservatives begin weaponizing the word "neocon" in intramural squabbles with other Republicans?
I think it's fairly recent, the past five to ten years, and it's extraordinarily unfortunate and ignorant.
The truth is, US policies of "containment" and "MAD" were designed in the 1940s and 1950s by both Democrat and Republican administrations.
They were intended to confront expansive communism from the Soviet Union and China's CCP, and were more-or-less forgotten during the peaceful post-Cold War 1990s.

These days are not so peaceful, and both Russia and China have reverted to form, again becoming totalitarian, expansionist, militarist empire builders.

The bi-partisan US doctrines of "containment" and "MAD" kept the world at relative peace from around 1945 until the 1990s.
So, as Russia and China now revert to their natural forms, being totalitarian empire builders, it's worth remembering what we did for many decades to hold them in check and keep the world peace.

[BroJoeK]

hardspunned: "The Russians gave absolute, unequivocal warning of what they would do if NATO membership for Ukraine and resultant NATO hordes on their border, 300 miles from Moscow, was imminent."

And yet... and yet.. NATO membership for Ukraine was never "imminent", even though both NATO and Russia had joined plans for membership in the early 1990s, and Vlad the Invader had discussed NATO membership for Russia with our own Pres. Slick William in 2000.
By the early 2000s Vlad had lead Russia off the path to NATO membership, though still very friendly, while Ukraine and other Eastern European countries stayed on the path -- or tried to.

So, obviously, you've been drinking the Russian propaganda Koolaid and it's rotted your brain and that's why you don't know that NATO membership had nothing to do with Vlad the Invader's seizing and annexing Crimea in 2014.
In 2022 Vlad did mention NATO expansion, however, there was no NATO expansion near Russia after 2014.

Here are the reasons Vlad the Invader gave for his 2022 "special military operations":

1. NATO eastward expansion (there was none since 2014)

2. Genocide against Russians in Ukraine (absurd)

3. Ukraine is not a real country (Ukraine was formally recognized by Russia many times since 1990)

4. Ukraine might have nuclear weapons (there's no evidence of that)

5. Russians want to rebuild the old Soviet/Tsarist Empire, to include Eastern European countries (then Vlad's Invasion must be defeated)

hardspunned: "When it’s NATO v Russia, they will be decimated conventionally.
The Russians are well aware of that.
They have made it crystal clear that they will immediately resort to nukes.
You trust in VegPres and the globalists, I look at the reality of the situation."

The reality of this situation is that you've gone insane from drinking way too much Russian propaganda Koolaid.
The truth is, throughout many decades of the Cold War the old Soviets always threatened nuclear war, but they were never, ever insanely suicidal.
And Vladimir Putin is the epitome of an Old Soviet, KGB.

The most likely result now is that Ukraine will eventually join both the EU and NATO, and Vlad the Invader will have achieved the very things he claimed his invasions were intended to stop.

[BroJoeK]

Allegra: "You’re calling me a Russian propagandist just because I don’t support sending billions of our tax dollars and a good chunk of our arsenal to a mincing little grifter just because he demands it? "

No, of course not, but if I can identify Russian propaganda coming from a poster named "Allegra", then what am I to conclude?

"mincing little grifter" -- that's Russian propaganda talk.
"just because he demands it" -- more propaganda talk.

The truth is that Ukraine has requested what they think they need to defeat Vlad the Invader's orcs in Ukraine.
The US and dozens of other countries have tried to fill those requests.

Allegra: "I do not support the Biden crime family’s money laundering operation."

First, there is no evidence that Biden or anybody else is corruptly "laundering" money through Ukraine.
Second, it seems to me that the entire Biden family should get long sentences behind bars, but that is irrelevant to Vlad the Invader's orcs in Ukraine.

Allegra: "What is it with you Ukrainians that you align those of us who are against our nation’s resources feeding this mess with being supportive of Russia?"

I have no connections to Ukraine, but I did "stand guard" in the US Army, in West Germany, for three years in the 1970s, to prevent the Old Soviets from doing in Germany what they are today doing in Ukraine.
The truth about Russia is that they are bullies who respect military strength, and can smell weakness the same way, in nature, scavengers can smell a rotting corps from many miles away.

As for your question, one iron-clad immutable law of human nature was first expressed by philosopher Edmund Burke, then reformulated more succinctly by John Stuart Mill:

"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing."

quoting BJK: "...pro-Russians almost always post outrageous lies, while pro-Ukrainians try their best to stick to the truth."

Allegra: "ROFL! That’s some CNN-level opining there.
I’d even go as far to say that it falls into the “outrageous lie” category.
But, you’re certainly entitled to your opinion."

All Russian propaganda is lies, and much of it has been repeated by posters on Free Republic threads.
That's a fact, regardless of how much you wish to deny it.

Allegra: "That was amusing for a minute, but I don’t mire myself in conversations with those who line up with the left. I learned a long time ago the futility of such an endeavor."

It was radical Democrats in the late 1960s who first abandoned the old US doctrines of "containment" and "MAD" toward the old Soviet Union and China's CCP.
Conservative Republicans like Ronald Reagan held fast to the doctrines and with them defeated the old Soviet Union.

Since then many conservatives have begun to think the old doctrines are obsolete, even in the face of rising threats to peace from both Russia and China's CCP.
But remember this: the old doctrines of "containment" and "MAD" are only "obsolete" so long as Russia and China remain peaceful and law-abiding.
Today they are neither, and so it is time to look at conserving, preserving and reviving the old doctrines, with our allies.

[BroJoeK]

"Difference is, Hitler could roll over all Europe, and Putin won’t attack a MATO member."

Which sort of explains, doesn't it, why Ukraine and every other country near Russia's borders will need to join NATO or some other defensive alliance?

Hitler "rolled over all Europe" because he believed, largely correctly, that those countries were too weak to stop him.
Russians won't attack a NATO country so long as they believe NATO is strong enough to defeat Russia.
That's why so many countries near Russia want to join NATO, if they haven't already.

[BroJoeK]

Its All Over Except ...: "Wrong. It wouldn’t have had the level of embarrassment it had then, with their silly wxcusez if you were correct, regardless of the monies at that link."

I don't see where anyone is "embarrassed", but it doesn't matter because a frank discussion among diplomats does not constitute or imply some nefarious US "engineering" of Ukraine's Euro-Maidan revolt.

Its All Over Except ...: "2nd, you’re quick to give the Obama regime the benefit of the doubt when he was clearly a warmonger, but you like that sort of thing"

As I seem to remember, Obama abandoned Iraq, almost as disgracefully as Biden abandoned Afghanistan, then Obama turned over much of Syria to ISIS.
I wouldn't call those actions "war-mongering".

As for giving Obama the benefit of the doubt", there seems to be no doubt that Obama, and many others, supported Ukraine's Euro-Maidan revolt against Russian domineering in 2013-14.
You may remember that Obama also "supported" Iran's Green Revolution in 2009-10, but in reality, did nothing to help and so it was crushed by Iran's Moola Mullahs.
Nothing I've seen suggests Obama's support for Ukraine was markedly more than what he did, or rather didn't do, in Iran.

Its All Over Except ...: "3rd, Trump has more trustworthiness than you."

As a pro-Russian propagandist, you have no trustworthiness at all.
And I've heard or seen nothing from Trump which disagrees with what I've posted here.
Trump has accurately said that if he'd been president, there would be no Russian invasion of Ukraine, and that he can bring the war to an end very quickly.
I'm certain those are true.

Its All Over Except ...: "4th, there are videos of McCain and Nuland stoking the crowds in Ukraine."

Nooooo... your own video showed McCain and Connecticut Democrat Senator Murphy at a news conference in December 2013, in which Murphy announced his support for sanctions against individuals in the anti-EuroMaidan government who might commit violence against the protestors.

Its All Over Except ...: "After violent events associated with the Maidan revolution protests, Ukraine’s parliament ousted President Viktor Yanukovich in February 2014 and replaced him with Petro Poroshenko.
Disposed Yanukovich was an existential threat because his amicable relations with Russia impeded Ukraine from becoming a European member and NATO from expanding to Russia’s border. "

First, you know for certain you are a pro-Russian propagandist if you call those events a "coup".
In fact, they were a 100% constitutionally legitimate impeachment of the treasonous Russian stooge, Yanukovych.
The vote in Ukraine's parliament was 328 to zero.

Second, at the same time Parliament impeached Yanukovych, it called for new elections in three months.

Third, in 2013 neither Ukraine's potential membership in NATO, nor in the EU, was "imminent" or used by Vlad the Invader to justify annexing Crimea.

Sen. McCain addressing crowd in Kiev, December 2013:

[BroJoeK]

Its All Over Except ...: "“Putin propaganda.”
The left plays those games.
Do better."

Believe me, the moment you stop sounding like a Russian propagandist, I'll stop calling your words Russian propaganda.

By the way, by definition, Russian propaganda is Left Wing propaganda.
So, if you are spouting the Russian party line, FRiend, then you are the Leftist here.

Don't forget that.

[BroJoeK]

Its All Over Except ...: "Again, it is not the job of the US to be world cop, it goes against the vision of the Founders, it is neocon talk, Putin will not attack a NATO member, that may mean Ukraine falls, and conservatives don’t live or support policies based upon humanitarianism."

From 1945 until the 1990s, the US and allies stood tall against Communist expansionism from the Soviet Union, Communist China and others.
The doctrines then were called "containment" and "MAD" and they prevented a Third World War.

Today, we've largely forgotten about "containment" and "MAD", but neither the Old Soviets (Putin) nor the Chinese Communists (Xi) have forgotten, they see & "smell" our weakness and so are now hoping to do what they couldn't before -- become empires of conquest.

It's exactly the same situation today as the 1930s Rhineland, Austria, Sudetenland & Poland.
Winston Churchill blamed Chamberlain for WWII because, he said, Chamberlain didn't follow Churchill's advice to get tougher on Hitler sooner.

That's where we are today in Georgia, Ukraine, Taiwan & elsewhere.

[BroJoeK]

buwaya: "“Neocon” is a political term.
One doesn’t have to be a neocon to understand history.
One can despise neocons, despise the US, despise modernity, believe in communism or a flat earth, but still understand the fact of the Pax Americana."

Exactly right.
As used by posters like "Its All Over Except ..." the word "neocon" is a totally meaningless insult and nothing more.

In point of fact, to be a "neocon" you must first have been a traditional national security Democrat who believes, as former Democrat Ronald Reagan said, "I didn't leave the Democrats, they left me."

Conservative Republicans were always strong on national defense against expansionist Communism.
With Communism removed as a major threat in the 1990s, conservatives began to feel that "containment" and "MAD" were no longer necessary.

But today, Russian and Chinese Communist expansionism is back, and so it's time for us to revisit those old ideas of "containment" and "MAD".
That's not "neocon" because conservatives have always favored a strong-enough national defense.

[Allegra]

LOL - your whole post is so ridiculous, narrow-minded and full of leftist lies and gaslighting crap, I’m not going to waste anymore time on it. As I said before, I won’t get mired in discussions with leftists. I know how they operate; I used to attempt it before I learned.

Have a nice day and thank you for your service.

[Allegra]

“Putin propaganda.”

The left plays those games.

Do better.

This BroJoeK dude is an out and out leftist, spewing propagandist word vomit all over the place. He’s even defending Biden and his puppet buddy Zelensky.

I don’t understand why FR tolerates Biden’s supporters o here.

[BroJoeK]

Allegra: "LOL - your whole post is so ridiculous, narrow-minded and full of leftist lies and gaslighting crap, I’m not going to waste anymore time on it.
As I said before, I won’t get mired in discussions with leftists.
I know how they operate; I used to attempt it before I learned."

You obviously have no clue what you're talking about, or any real concept of what's being discussed here.

If you ever find a clue, let me know, and I'll help you work your way back to reality, FRiend.

[BroJoeK]

Allegra: "This BroJoeK dude is an out and out leftist, spewing propagandist word vomit all over the place. He’s even defending Biden and his puppet buddy Zelensky."

Like I said, you have no clue what you're talking about, you're just babbling mindless nonsense, hurling out idiotic insults in the desperate hope something will stick.

Here is a fundamental fact of life: if you are here peddling Russian propaganda, then you are NOT the conservatives on this thread.

Think about that.

Allegra: "I don’t understand why FR tolerates Biden’s supporters o here."

There are no "Biden supporters" on Free Republic, that's absurd.
So, why does Free Republic tolerate Russian propaganda?
The answer, in large part, is, because only Leftist Democrats try to shut down free speech they don't like.

Are you one of those?

[Allegra]

LOL - insults from people I don’t know, especially leftists, are a badge of honor. When a leftist starts screeching a bunch of vituperative nonsense, it means I’m thinking the right way.

Bye, Screechy.

[nicollo]

As for your alleged "duplicity", Vlad the Invader is arguably the most brilliant Russian, and he was not "duped" into anything, much less into invading Ukraine twice!

GWB gave Putin parts of Georgia, Obama gave him Crimea, and Biden is giving away Donbas. I've tested it with Heinlein's razor, but it can't even be explained by stupidity. I'll stick with duplicity, as candor is entirely lacking from the U.S. government.

[BroJoeK]

nicollo: "GWB gave Putin parts of Georgia, Obama gave him Crimea, and Biden is giving away Donbas.
I've tested it with Heinlein's razor, but it can't even be explained by stupidity.
I'll stick with duplicity, as candor is entirely lacking from the U.S. government."

None of those presidents "gave away" anything, what they did was refuse to go to war with Russia, or even seriously oppose Vlad the Invader's foreign conquests.

They did what Neville Chamberlain & Co did in the late 1930s, in the Rhineland, Austria & Sudetenland -- they appeased the Russian bear.

You may remember that Winston Churchill blamed Neville Chamberlain for WWII, saying, if Chamberlain had followed Churchill's advice to get tough on Hitler, then the Second World War would never have started.

But that's a far cry from ludicrously claiming that Chamberlain himself started WWII.
Whatever the failures of Chamberlain, GWB, Obama or Obiden, the morally responsible agents were Hitler and Vlad the Invader.

By the way, I'm a big fan of Robert Heinlein's science fiction books, read them all when I was a boy, and there is no doubt whatever that Heinlein used a razor on his bald head.

But the razor I think you're talking about belonged to a 14th century English Franciscan friar named William of Occam, in southern England.
Friar Occam didn't use this particular razor to shave with, but rather as philosophical tool, to help chose among competing explanations for, say, a physical phenomenon.

On the left, Heinlein after shaving.
On the right, Friar Occam in church.

[BroJoeK]

Allegra: "LOL - insults from people I don’t know, especially leftists, are a badge of honor.
When a leftist starts screeching a bunch of vituperative nonsense, it means I’m thinking the right way."

I'm sorry you've reduced yourself to babbling nonsense.
If you ever recover your sanity, let me know and I'll help you reason your way to the truth of these matters -- the conservative truth.

[nicollo]

Right Heinlein, wrong razor. Heinlein’s is also called “Hanlon’s razor.”

Nevertheless, failure to act equates to bad action. Bush was a lameduck during an election year, so I can’t say he acted with malice. Obama was arguably just weak but duplicity is evident in the 2012 “Tell Vlad” comment. And Biden clearly acted with duplicity and malice, just as he did in Afghanistan.

Nevertheless, and then I’m done here, there is zero equivalency in Ukraine to WWII. That the US has allowed this invasion to happen has only weakened, not strengthened, NATO, and strengthened, not weakened, Russia, as it’s the Russians (and, by proxy, the Chinese) who are learning all the lessons, not us.

[BroJoeK]

"Nevertheless, and then I’m done here, there is zero equivalency in Ukraine to WWII.
That the US has allowed this invasion to happen has only weakened, not strengthened, NATO, and strengthened, not weakened, Russia, as it’s the Russians (and, by proxy, the Chinese) who are learning all the lessons, not us."

Agreed, except, the equivalent part, then and now, is they began with aggressive dictators invading and annexing foreign countries, while the "good guys" stood by and did nothing serious about it.
Indeed, the matchup is pretty eerie:

1. 1936 Hitler invades the Rhineland, a part of Germany restricted by the Versailles Treaty. France did nothing to stop him.
   2000 Vlad invades Chechnya, a part of Russia then in rebellion. Nobody did anything to stop him.

2. 1938 Hitler invades and annexes Austria, with very little resistance.
   2008 Vlad invades and all but annexes parts of Georgia, with no more than verbal protests from the West.

3. 1939 Hitler invades and annexes the Sudetenland, Czechoslovakia, with formal OK from the UK -- "peace in our time".
   2014 Vlad invades and annexes Crimea with no serious opposition from the West -- Obama sent blankets to Ukraine.

4. 1939 Hitler invades & annexes parts of Poland after forming alliance with Stalin's Soviet Union. Finally, the West takes Hitler seriously and declares war, though for months did little or nothing to stop him.
   2022 Vlad again invades and annexes more of Ukraine after strengthening alliance with China's Xi Jinping. Finally, the world takes Vlad seriously and launches a major effort to slow, stop and reverse Russian territorial conquests in Ukraine.

Sure, anybody can claim, "Putin is not Hitler", but then tell us, in what ways have Putin's actions been different from Hitler's in the 1930s?