Trump's yearslong crusade against Ukraine has finally come home to roost as Republicans call for abandoning Kyiv

BJK: "Normal wartime measures, in both World Wars the US took similar measures,"

SmokingJoe: "Nope.
The main parties are the Republicans and the Democrats, neither of which were banned in WWI or WW II.
Lincoln was Republican , and he never even came close to banning the Democratic Party during the nasty, bloody Civil way.
You can't go about banning opposition parties just because there is a war."

In the Civil War and both World Wars Americans who supported our enemies were arrested, held and sometimes tried for treason.
That's exactly what's going on in Ukraine today.
I'll repeat: today there are 10 pro-Ukrainian parties with elected representatives in Ukraine's parliament.
There are no pro-Russian parties, just as there were no pro-Confederate or pro-German parties in our wars.

SmokingJoe: "Tucker Carlson Blasts Zelensky for Demanding American Money"

That's strictly political hyperbole -- Ukraine can't "demand" anything, but they are certainly within their rights to request what they need to win their war against madman Putin.

As I understand it, Rand Paul and Jim Jordan have voted against aid to Ukraine, not because they think Ukrainians unworthy, but rather they think our own corrupt administration will use much of the money to feather their own nests.

That, I think, is an entirely reasonable position.
When Republicans are again in charge, they will be responsible for writing laws that prevent corrupt Democrats from getting rich off US taxpayer dollars.

Here's the map of NATO. You might notice NATO includes Alaska::

Again, NATO does NOT make America a part of Europe like you claimed.
And 2, Ukraine is not even a part of NATO.
We have ZERO obligations to waste $70 billion of money that we borrowed on a country like Ukraine.

So here are the real numbers — US GDP (nominal) is six times larger than Germany's.

Irrelevant.
Doesn't change the fact that Ukraine is NOT our obligation, and Ukraine is not a part of NATO, and its not up to America to go squandering vast amounts of borrowed money on yet another European country to save them in yet another war.
Let the Europeans sort out their own mess.

Homeless camps in San Francisco are a function of local and California state politics, they have nothing to do with Federal budgets.

That $70 Billion we are wasting on Ukraine, would get a home for every single homeless person in San Francisco and the whole of California and more.
You see, those are OUR citizens versus Ukraine who are not our citizens, don't pay American taxes and to whom we owe ZERO obligations.

Our responsibility comes as a signatory to the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, as the leader of NATO and, arguably since it was our inexcusable weakness in the Afghanistan skedaddle which directly provoked madman Putin's invasion — we helped make it and break it, we should help fix it.

No it doesn't.
I had a look at the 1994 Budapest Memorandum. I did not see any part that said we should borrow tens of billions of dollars we don't have to save Ukraine's sorry butt, if they get themselves into yet another war.
Its nonsense for Zelensky to keep demanding we pay for his war and for rebuilding his country.
Let him go mooch on someone else for a change and go take a bloody jump.

Your words, “corrupt, sleazy, woke” certainly define the Biden administration and madman Putin's dictatorship in Russia.
I've seen no evidence those words describe anybody in Ukraine.

You must be living on Mars if you missed all the news about corruption in Ukraine and corruption involving Joe and Hunter Biden in Ukraine over the past 8 years. You missed the Hunter Biden laptop too?

By my count Europeans have contributed about 40% of total aid to Ukraine.
That roughly corresponds to the EU GDP compared to the USA GDP.

You are totally missing the point.
US contribution to ANY war in Ukraine should be exactly ZERO.
We've wasted enough money fighting wars in Europe since WWI and WW@. Let the Europeans take care of themselves for a change.

The US would be foolish beyond all foolishness to scrap our NATO alliance at a time when it most serves our interests in blocking madman Putin's imperialist ambitions in Ukraine.

Again, Ukraine is NOT a part of NATO.
And NATO itself is long past its sell by date after the Warsaw Pact was disbanded.
Its the height of stupidity to squander $70 Billion and counting on yet another war in Europe, when we have serious economic problems at home right now.

Sorry, I know our leaders are abjectly stupid, but even they are not that stupid, FRiend.

Stupid is wasting VAST sums of our money on some country in Eastern Europe that we have no alliance with or commitment to, while leaving our own borders unprotected and taken over by Mexican drug lords.

Of course, we did! Read it.

Nope.
We did NOT.
You read it.

Based on our promises, Ukraine voluntarily gave up its nuclear weapons

Ukraine is free to make their own nukes if they want (they were part of the Soviet Union no?), but um, just how are they going to take on the mighty Russian nuclear arsenal?

The Cold War was all about the Soviet threat to use its nukes if provoked.
And the Soviets had multiple nuclear warheads for every one of ours, everything from relatively “low-yield” short-range tactical nukes to the big intercontinental ballistic missiles with warheads yielding many megaton explosions.

You forget to mention that America was the first to develop nuclear weapons, at a time when the Soviets had NO NUCLEAR WEAPONS.
And, so far, America is the only country on this planet, to have used nuclear weapons TWICE to slaughter the civilians of another country to force that country to surrender.
You are a good one to talk.

No Confederate alive in 1860 was ever going to allow abolition in the Confederacy — the Confederate constitution made that certain.

Yeah?
“No confederate alive” huh?
What do you even know about the south at the that time?
There were plenty of people from the south who did not like/support slavery. Look it up.
And tell me, just how many countries still had slavery going on, even as far back as 1920 just 50 years after the end of the civil war?
Slavery has been around for as long as human communities have existed, but slavery, like most other ways of life of the past eventually died out.
The Civil Way hastened the end of slavery in America, but slavery would inevitably have died out.
Like I said, the British abolished slavery long before we did and sent their warships to go after the slave ships while America was still slave trading.

And yet, we've never fought a war against Ukraine, but you still want to treat them like enemies.
What's up with that?

We've never fought a war against Nigeria either. Does it mean we should spend a massive $70 to defend Nigeria if they got into a war?
Nope.

In the Civil War and both World Wars Americans who supported our enemies were arrested, held and sometimes tried for treason.

We've been apologizing to the Japanese Americans since for their illegitimate interment in WW2 etc.
And we just fought a very long war against Iraq and Afghanistan WITHOUT mass interment of anybody from those countries.

That's exactly what's going on in Ukraine today.

And why is Ukraine doing that again when other countries have stopped it?

That's strictly political hyperbole —

Nope.
Its FACT.
You need to watch that Zelensky interview with the BBC or that Tucker program.

Ukraine can't “demand” anything, but they are certainly within their rights to request what they need to win their war against madman Putin

They don't have the “rights” to demand or request or whatever from long suffering American taxpayers.

"If you rather Russia win this war,..."

False choice. I support neither side, but support ending ALL aid to Ukraine, most of Europe, and sandboxes like Syria.

I support pulling out of NATO completely, end of story. It was formed to oppose the Soviet Union, which collapsed 40+ years ago. There is no Societ Union. It's gone kaput. NATO is a solution looking for a problem, and a giant money sink for my grandkids. Because of our support, Europe doesn't have to defend themselves, so we pick up the tab.

Trump wanted out of NATO, and so do I.

As for "choose a side!" my answer is, "Nope." You don't have to participate in every fight you're invited to.

"But Russia will march across Europe if we don't stop them!"

A. BS.

B. Let Europe take care of Europe.

C. The USA and GB (with reluctant NATO) kept poking the bear. WE proviked Russia into invading.

We're no longer Wilsonians: "Team America, World Police!" Eff that shiite. NO.

WE'RE BROKE!!!!

“I’m not an isolationist. I have been around the world and there are very evil people out there just waiting for us to back off. Ignoring the world would be a disaster for them and for us.”

Thanks!

I am compiling a list of State Department, Pentagon, and Ukraine Lobby pro-war talking points. That comment made the list, though I’ll have to shorten it.

(Can you pls reduce it to maybe 7 words?)

I’ll do a jpg of the talking point list to post to all the “Yay Ukraine!” threads infesting FR by paid shills from the afformentioned groups.

Save some time. Get them out of the way early.

I may even number them, so the paid trolls can save time by simply posting, “Number 8!”

SmokingJoe: "Again, NATO does NOT make America a part of Europe like you claimed.""

NATO allies are intended to act as one in their common defense.
So, for practical defense purposes, NATO makes Americans Europeans and Europeans Americans. It's all about "one for all and l for one."

The fact is that no sane person wants madman Putin to win, or wants to be responsible for Ukraine being defeated.

The only argument against that makes sense to me is the one made be Republicans like Rand Paul and Jim Jordan, namely, that we need to be more certain that our aid is actually going for its intended purpose.
I agree and expect them to do that starting next year.

I also expect Pres. Trump to negotiate a just peace there, starting in 2025.
But in the meantime, we have to do the best we can with what we have.

SmokingJoe "We have ZERO obligations to waste $70 billion of money that we borrowed on a country like Ukraine."

Sure, you can close your eyes to reality all you want and deny its existence as much as you wish.
But reality remains true, regardless of what you say about it.
Reality remains 1) The US promised to defend Ukraine in the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, 2) US weakness in the Afghanistan skedaddle helped provoke madman Putin's invasion of Ukraine and 3) the long term harm from a Ukraine defeat will be far greater than the $billions we're talking about now.

SmokingJoe: "Let the Europeans sort out their own mess."

For purposes of national defense, we are Europeans and they are Americans. Get used to it.

SmokingJoe: "That $70 Billion we are wasting on Ukraine, would get a home for every single homeless person in San Francisco and the whole of California and more."

Once again, "You know nothing, Jon Snow."
Homelessness in San Francisco has NOTH8NG to do with a lack of money, and EVERYTHING to do with insane Democrat party politics.
All the money in the world won't help those homeless until insane Democrats are voted out of office.

SmokingJoe: "if they get themselves into yet another war."

Ukraine was invaded, unprovoked, by a madman who must not succeed in such behavior, or we will see much, much more of it.
Then the costs will not just be a few $billions.

NATO allies are intended to act as one in their common defense.

That makes America a part of Europe?
Nope.

So, for practical defense purposes, NATO makes Americans Europeans and Europeans Americans. It's all about “one for all and l for one.”

Nonsense.
Can you even imagine Europe spending a massive $70 billion of their money to defend America if America were invaded?
With the American president demanding that Europe not only supply America with free arms, he also demands that Europe pays for their entire budget and national expenses like Zelensky is doing right now?
Not gonna happen. Ever.

But reality remains true, regardless of what you say about it.
Reality remains 1) The US promised to defend Ukraine in the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, 2) US weakness in the Afghanistan skedaddle helped provoke madman Putin's invasion of Ukraine and 3) the long term harm from a Ukraine defeat will be far greater than the $billions we're talking about now.

1. We did NOT promise to defend Ukraine, pay for all their arms and weapons for free and essentially pay for their entire domestic bills and budget like Zelensky is demanding. That's NUTS.

2. Dementia Joe's surrender in Afghanistan to the Taliban after 20 years of fighting was terrible, yes.
But we went to Afghanistan to take out Al Queda after 9/11. We were defending ourselves not fighting another country's war.

3. There is no “long term harm” to America from Ukraine signing a peace deal with Russia now, instead of putting the whole world at risk of nuclear war.
Ukraine is not that important for the fate of humanity tpo dumped into the garbage for.

For purposes of national defense, we are Europeans and they are Americans. Get used to it.

Nope.
And I have lived in Europe before. Europeans in general do NOT consider themselves Americans in any way.
The have looked down in Americans for a very long time.

Homelessness in San Francisco has NOTH8NG to do with a lack of money, and EVERYTHING to do with insane Democrat party politics.
All the money in the world won't help those homeless until insane Democrats are voted out of office.

Forget about "all the money in the world". Just give me that $70 Billion and I'll get every homeless person in San Francisco a real home to live at.

Ukraine was invaded, unprovoked, by a madman who must not succeed in such behavior, or we will see much, much more of it.

Ukraine was invaded, yes.
But was it totally unprovoked?
Nope.
You think America for example, would sit idly by if Russia was making moves to build a military base in Mexico?
How'd Nikita Khrushchev’s Cuban missile build up go for example?
Not to mention countries are regularly invaded throughout the world. We have no business running ourselves into massive debts defending every country that is invaded.

SmokingJoe: "You must be living on Mars if you missed all the news about corruption in Ukraine and corruption involving Joe and Hunter Biden in Ukraine over the past 8 years. You missed the Hunter Biden laptop too?*

No, I missed none of that, but the Bidens are one family out of, what, 330 million Americans?
One corrupt family does not make the whole country corrupt -- even if you include the corrupt Obamas & Clinton's, you still can't tar the whole country for their misdeeds.
Same with Ukraine -- indeed, Zelenski was elected largely because Ukrainians believed he was NOT corrupted.

And who anywhere is more corrupt than Putin's Russia?
So I don't think alleged corruption of small numbers in a country is an argument for or against anything.

What matters is: madman Putin's naked aggression must not succeed.

SmokingJoe: "US contribution to ANY war in Ukraine should be exactly ZERO.
We've wasted enough money fighting wars in Europe since WWI and WW@.
Let the Europeans take care of themselves for a change."

The consequences of a Putin victory will be global, including Taiwan and any other small country a brutal dictator wants to conquer.
So it's not "just Europe" -- if we stop, or fail to stop, aggression in Ukraine, that will serve as the pattern for other dictators.

SmokingJoe: "And NATO itself is long past its sell by date after the Warsaw Pact was disbanded,"

In what way is KGB Putin"s Russia today different from the old KGB Soviet Union, pray tell?

SmokingJoe: "Stupid is wasting VAST sums of our money on some country in Eastern Europe that we have no alliance with or commitment to, while leaving our own borders unprotected and taken over by Mexican drug lords."

The US could end our border problem tomorrow, if our leaders wanted to, but they don't, and so it will continue until we elect new leaders.

Really, really stupid is letting naked aggression win just because it changed its name from "KGB Soviet Union" to "KGB Russia".
Regardless of whatever name, it's still naked aggression and must be stopped or we will see much more of it very soon.

BJK: "Based on our promises, Ukraine voluntarily gave up its nuclear weapons."

SmokingJoe: "Ukraine is free to make their own nukes if they want (they were part of the Soviet Union no?), but um, just how are they going to take on the mighty Russian nuclear arsenal?

Ah, so now I see you are an actual Russian, a propagandist, and not some patriotic American just looking out for our own best interests.
So how's the weather in Moscow, comrade?
Getting a little chilly, eh?
Need some more of that global warming, right?

So, comrad, deny it all you wish, but the fact remains that Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons based on yours and our security promises.
That's just one reason we have to help them, now that you people have flipped over to "madman Putin" mode.

SmokingJoe : "You forget to mention that America was the first to develop nuclear weapons, at a time when the Soviets had NO NUCLEAR WEAPONS.
And, so far, America is the only country on this planet, to have used nuclear weapons TWICE to slaughter the civilians of another country to force that country to surrender.
You are a good one to talk."

But comrad, YOU forget that our Democrat administration LET your spies steal all our nuclear secrets so you could build your own bombs to threaten us with.
Why? Well, because our Democrats were just as insane then as they are today, why else?

You also forget that those A-bombs saved at least a million Americans and many millions of Japanese, including civilians, who would have died in a US invasion of Japan.
Those bombs cut the war short and saved many times more lives than they took -- including my dad's, so you can save you nuclear guilt trip for someone else, comrad.

SmokingJoe: "There were plenty of people from the south who did not like/support slavery. Look it up."

Of course there were, a majority, in fact, in such Southern Union states as Maryland, West Virginia and Missouri, even enough in Delaware & Kentucky to prevent them from joining the Confederacy.

But in the original seven Deep South Confederate states there were really none, zero, willing to speak out against tbe "Southern Way of Life".
True Confederates -- slavocrats -- ruled the Deep South and would not under any circumstances VOLUNTARILY give up slavery, period.

SmokingJoe: "We've never fought a war against Nigeria either.
Does it mean we should spend a massive $70 to defend Nigeria if they got into a war?
Nope."

If China invades Nigeria, or Taiwan, we'd be wise to do whatever we can to make them fail.

SmokingJoe : "We've been apologizing to the Japanese Americans since for their illegitimate interment in WW2 etc"

Because, come to find out, there were no anti-Americans among them, nor were they treated as American laws required.
True enemies of America in declared wartime were arrested, held and sometimes tried.
No war since WWII was officially declared, and anti-American citizens have been allowed to do their worst.

The last time the USA was seriously invaded by a major foreign power was 1812, and Americans were not allowed to support the Brits in that war.

SmokingJoe : "And why is Ukraine doing that again when other countries have stopped it?"

No country victimized by naked aggression, as Ukraine is, has ever allowed its citizens to give aid and comfort to their enemies.
The US Constitution defines that as treason.

SmokingJoe "Nope.
Its FACT.
You need to watch that Zelensky interview with the BBC or that Tucker program.

Really? is that what they teach Russians in English language class?
That a REQUEST for aid can be termed a DEMAND?
Well, if that's what they told you, your teachers were just wrong, that's all.

Of course I can't defend whatever Tucker Carlson may or may not have said, but I have noticed him sounding a little... ah, strange on this subject.

I think it's this: when there is no effective leadership from the US White House, then even the best of our pundocrats can sound a little nuts sometimes.

Comrad, even Russian propagandists like you have a "right" to REQUEST what you want.
And if your request seems like a good idea, then somebody may grant it.

A request is not a demand in our country, comrad.
You should have learned that in your school.

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