AOC says Green New Deal would have helped to prevent Texas blackouts

Fox News ^ | 2/17/2021 | Megan Henney

[ro_dreaming]

Dear AOC - the Green New Deal (or at least, it’s policies!) are what brought Texas INTO this problem. Go back to slingin’ suds in NY, ya yankee.

[Inspectorette]

Bartenders have to be psychiatrists, psychologists, capable of listening to interminable sob stories, and being empathetic. All on top of being professional mixologists.

I'm wondering if she was an actual bartender, or a barmaid. Big difference.

[ro_dreaming]

A private guarded room didn’t help Epstein.

/Epstein didn’t kill himself, ya know?

[_Jim]

AOC is an idiot. This event was a redux of the event in 2011, with the temps about 10 degrees cooler:

“Report on Outages and Curtailments During the Southwest Cold Weather Event of February 1-5, 2011”
2-01-2011 Feb 2 2011 ERCOT blackouts

https://www.balch.com/files/upload/NERC_8_16_2011_SW_Cold_Weather_Event_Final_Report.pdf

Also contains:

“Impact of Cold Weather on Gas Production in the Texas
and New Mexico Gas Production Regions of the United
States During early February, 2011”

“Winterization Document”
Prepared for Federal Energy Regulatory Commission
Prepared by Gas Technology Institute
by Kent F. Perry

From pg 188:

---

Texas has recently enacted legislation to deal with the problem of inadequate winterization by generators. A bill was introduced in the Texas legislature following the February 2011 blackouts, with provisions directing the PUCT to prepare a weather emergency preparedness report, to review the emergency operations plans on file, and to recommend improvements to the plans to ensure electric service reliability. In introducing the bill, State Senator Glenn Hegar stated: “What I don’t want, is another storm and another report someone puts on the shelf for 21 years and nobody looks at.”

After a Senate Committee hearing, the bill was amended and unanimously adopted by the Texas Senate. The House unanimously passed the bill on May 23, and the bill was signed into law by Governor Richard Perry on June 17, 2011.

---

“February Power Blackouts Across Texas echoed 1989 Failures”
By Eric Dexheimer
Austin American-Statesman, Apr. 10, 2011
Posted Apr 11, 2011 at 12:01 AM
Updated Dec 12, 2018 at 10:13 AM
https://www.statesman.com/article/20110411/NEWS/304119704

[Paul R.]

Our local noon TV news (460 miles away from the closest point in TX) was deriding the notion that wind power failures were the cause of the outages in TX. Then they went on to say wind was only 25% of TX electrical supply, and only 1/2 the wind power was lost. Bigger shortages happened due to failures at gas and coal plants.

They and other sources claim only 1/2 of that 25% was offline, but, a FReeper with power industry experience monitoring real time here on FR stated at one point that a majority of the capacity down was wind.

It IS true that natural gas supplies can and have been interrupted by cold temperatures. Moisture in the lines, and hydrates, can freeze up. There can even be physical damage due to frozen hydrate balls flying down pipelines. Instruments and other equipment freeze up. Etc.

Great article:

https://welker.com/freeze-protection-for-natural-gas-pipeline-systems-and-measurement-instrumentation/

In coal plants, some types of cooling towers, if used, can freeze up. Water based scrubbing equipment would surely be at risk, too. (I’m not sure about nuclear plants’ cooling towers...)

So... I think we need some real numbers and clarity here.

Start with a list of what % of Texas electrical power comes from each source. Then, more crucially, we need to know what % of each source was down during the worst overall 6 or 12 hour period. (Period duration is a compromise, I admit.)

It is not unfair to think of natural gas as green, or at least green leaning energy. It’s rise as an electrical energy source is partially due to fracking, but also partially due to the cost of coal being driven through the roof by environmental regulations that passed the point of maximum benefit to the planet (if one cares to think that way) long ago.

IMO nuclear is a sort of “green-leaner” too, but of a different sort, and quite expensive.

Hopefully, numbers from real time monitoring of the TX power grid situation, not after the fact (and suspect) numbers from the proprietors of this fiasco, can be found. Then that can be converted into a bar graph, and a summation:

What % of coal based capacity was down? What % of wind capacity was down? (MSM says 50%, but posts on FR indicate more like 80+ %, if I divide the GW.) What capacity of gas based capacity was down? Solar? Other?

Anybody?

[Paul R.]

Great post / link.

[greeneyes]

AOC is an idiotic reality denier. The inherent problems that wind and solar energy have- were just demonstrated in the real world.

Anyone with half a brain would know that and keep their mouth shut. Anyone with a conscience would not continue to recommend such failed methods.

[GreyFriar]

Such a deluded and ignorant leftist.

[Paul R.]

Geez, 218 pages and then you get to the “attachments”. (Another 100 pages or so?)

Anyway, the basic conclusion seems to be that type of power source had little bearing on whether or not failures occurred, and that most of the failures were due to instrumentation, equipment and controls.

I suppose then that it could be argued that while the ramp up to 25% wind power did not make the situation worse, perhaps the money put into wind power would have been better spent making to power grid more resilient to cold temperatures. How much more does a plant spend, per MW of capacity, to stay operational in cold weather in, say Iowa, than Texas?

[Paul R.]

Uh, I should “proofread” that last: ;-)

I suppose then that it could be argued that while the ramp up to 25% wind power did not make this latest situation worse, perhaps the money put into wind power would have been better spent making the power grid more resilient to cold temperatures. How much more does a plant spend, per MW of capacity, to stay operational in cold weather in, say Iowa, than Texas?

[Newbomb Turk]

She would make a better pole dancer.

[Paul R.]

Both you and AOC might want to do a little research / reading. Specifically, on page 196 of the report on a similar (but not quite as cold) event in TX in 2011, we discover as one of the key findings:

The single largest problem during the cold weather event was the freezing of instrumentation and equipment.

Comparison of energy sources for the grid, including a modest number of wind turbines, shows an almost inconsequential variance in failure rates, from type to type. Basically, the wind turbines were as bad as the gas powered plants were as bad as the coal fired plants. (By a modest margin, IMO, "gas combined cycle units had the highest percentage of failures, compared to their percentage of the total fuel mix. [page 195]

Perhaps in a just-barely-freezing ice storm, wind turbines would have come out worse than other sources. But in the 2011 event, a piece of equipment vital to a gas or coal powered plant was at least as likely to freeze up as a wind turbine. This 2021 event was even colder.

Now, one might assume vulnerable instruments, controls, and equipment would be well protected / insulated at any type power plant, but, apparently such is not the case in TX.

The argument that monies spent to replace still viable fossil fuel plants with wind turbines SHOULD have been instead spent on insulation, protection, and costs to fire up (and warm up) idle facilities before they froze up is valid, IMO. I also think it would be very interesting to study long term large scale reliability of wind turbines in cold climates vs. other types of power plants in cold climates. However, neither you or AOC are saying that. Instead, you both make statements that SEEM to make sense to you, but are not supported by in depth study of past events in TX.

300(?) pages of information is quite a bit to go through, but, I suggest you do.

https://www.balch.com/files/upload/NERC_8_16_2011_SW_Cold_Weather_Event_Final_Report.pdf

[greeneyes]

The argument that monies spent to replace still viable fossil fuel plants with wind turbines SHOULD have been instead spent on insulation, protection, and costs to fire up (and warm up) idle facilities before they froze up is valid.
*********************************************************************************************
My reply:
I agree with that. And I agree that AOC is not well informed and could do with better research-but then she has other interests that want this new deal-so reality apparently is not what she goes by.

---

:Both you and AOC might want to do a little research / reading:
*****************************************************************
My reply:

I did NOT agree with AOC. So I don’t understand your comment lumping me and AOC together. And I don’t agree with her Green New Deal. If you do, you are welcome to your opinion. I simply disagree.

And since I’ve read at least a thousand pages on pros and cons of various types of fuel and the power grid, the last couple of years, I’m certainly not going to read more this late at night.

Another investigation/report will no doubt be made. It’s my understanding that plants had done a great deal of winterizing in the last few years, but it was not sufficient.

I think Joe Bastardi mentioned that you have to go back to 1899 to find a storm this bad. So likely they thought they had it covered. From what I have gathered, apparently there were some freezing issues at the wellhead, and idle facilities were not warmed up etc. Clearly they were not prepared for this storm.

So standards most likely will need to be changed. That does not change the fact that while Solar and Wind are nice supplemental forms of power, they do need backup. And right now, fossil fuels can supply a lot.

While nuclear fuel has its proponents, at present that ain’t too popular either - NIMBY persists.

And I am astounded that you apparently put me and AOC in the same airhead category.

This whole thread has pretty much expressed the same opinion of AOC and her green new deal as I have, yet you pretty much ignore them and decide to insult me assuming I have done no research at all.

Thanks for that/not.

[scrabblehack]

I thought platitudes actually had to be true.

[Paul R.]

You posted: The inherent problems that wind and solar energy have- were just demonstrated in the real world.

But, in fact, this event did NOT demonstrate such problems on a wide scale, or at least not at a level greater than that of other problems with other major power sources in TX. (Solar does not seem to have been significant, nuclear is a minor source for TX, unfortunately.) Instead, this event demonstrated problems with lack of winterization common in a general sense to all the major electrical power sources in TX. However, as pointed out even on FR, wind turbines can function just fine at -30 degrees.

Obviously wind power does have inherent problems, the biggest being that as usually implemented it can only be a breezy day supplement to a power grid that can already handle worst case loads on a calm day. But by claiming THIS event demonstrated some sort of special problems with wind power, you and others just give the MSM and others an easy shot at discrediting conservatives, which is exactly what has happened. As Ozzy Osborne sang "I saw it, I saw it with my own two eyes": Twice now, on local (local!) TV news, a direct and unfortunately mostly correct*, it appears, effective attack was made on conservatives "spreading falsehoods about wind power in TX" (paraphrasal).

Now, in no way did I mean you agree with AOC. Instead, she comes at this particular problem in TX from one extreme, without a solid basis, and you came at it from the other direction, also without a solid basis.*

*If contrary information comes out and is well documented, I'll certainly consider it, too. I have asked previously that more data be posted here. I really(!) want to see the final report on this latest debacle. For me, there is never a subject about which more cannot be learned. I'll admit I started off thinking the wind turbines in TX were a huge problem in this situation, but, as I thought about it, and then researched, I realized bigger and more general problems were afoot.

Lastly... If I was (or am) too "undiplomatic" I apologize. It is just very frustrating to see someone like AOC make a ridiculous statement, and then instead of her being discredited, our side goes with statements easily pounced on, and AOC gets yet another pass. To put it another way, if AOC goes off the left side of the road and takes out 3 pedestrians, and, watching that, "we" go off the right side of the road and make a little mark in the shoulder, who gets damned (and a ticket) and can't really make a defense because we WERE driving slightly erratically? We have to be as precise as possible with our statements.

[Paul R.]

Oh, BTW, I ignored most of the comments because most do not address what appears to have actually happened in TX. Your reply to me does. :-)

[HotHunt]

Word: platitudes (plural noun)

Definition: a remark or statement that has been used too often to be interesting or thoughtful

Example: "she began uttering liberal platitudes"

I think platitudes can be truisms but not necessarily.

[greeneyes]

Obviously, I had done some research and had a solid basis for what I said. I stand by it.

Neither solar nor wind can be used at the present without a backup system and that is what most people freezing and seeing this debacle is thinking.

And that sentiment is reflected in the majority of the posts that are on the thread.

If it was not an inherent problem that needed to be addressed, then they would be working just fine now without any additional adjustments/changes needed.

The fact that there are additional problems such as lack of wind or lack of sun did not seem to me to be necessary to add to the list.

[greeneyes]

Oh, BTW, I ignored most of the comments because most do not address what appears to have actually happened in TX. Your reply to me does. :-)
******************************************************************************
No my initial post was to #1 antidemocrat - not to you. Then you responded with your lengthy blah blah blabber.

And there were plenty of comments that were addressing this situation - you ignored them to denigrate mine.

For example :

Dear AOC - the Green New Deal (or at least, it’s policies!) are what brought Texas INTO this problem. Go back to slingin’ suds in NY, ya yankee.

61 posted on 2/17/2021, 3:30:33 PM by ro_dreaming (”A nation that forgets its past has no future.” - Winston Churchill

Quibbling ain’t cool.

[JD_UTDallas]

At least get your facts right. Texas is one reliant on natural gas for power. I still 5 shale wells at a time 3 weeks on 3 off as a geologist and I consult in the energy industry fora number of projects. Texas failed to follow our recommendations after 2011 and winterize not only the power grid but critically also the natural gas distribution grid the Texas RRC refused to mandate h20 scrubbers from gas feeder lines and main lines then when temps went single digits for days at a time guess what the pipes froze we told them this would happen. The gas supply went from 24 billion cf to half that in a few hours. It was not green anything that failed it was the gas grid. Texas has enough natural gas turbines and combined cycle plants to tell wind to curtail every single wind turbine. Peak demand ever in winter was set in the 15th at 69,000 megawatts Texas has 125,000 total capacity of which wind is only 30,000 and in winter ERCOT only expects 10,000 of that. Had the gas grid not gone to critical levels the load shedding would not have happened. Every megawatts of wind power is backed up by 1.15 times its name plate capacity with.gas turbines AT ALL TIMES this is policy of Ercot the wind stops.blowing on the regular ERCOT keep spinning reserves so that every active wind turbine has a corresponding back up available spinning reserves that can come on line in seconds is at 60% and warm reserves which can be on line in under 15 minutes make up the rest. Those of us in the oil and gas industry have no problem admitting to what happened it was a once in a generation storm and policy will be changed to address the deficiencies. For those who care to look and not play politics here is the best explanation as to why the gas grid went down as an industry professional I have seen.

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/02/16/natural-gas-power-storm/