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The Biden Crime Family Comes Undone-Say it ain’t so, Joe.
Frontpagemagazine ^ | Oct 22, 2020 | Daniel Greenfield

Posted on 10/22/2020 8:18:20 AM PDT by SJackson

Daniel Greenfield, a Shillman Journalism Fellow at the Freedom Center, is an investigative journalist and writer focusing on the radical Left and Islamic terrorism.

The Biden family is notorious for being the crookedest clan not only in Delaware, but in D.C.

Delaware is a pretty small place, but D.C. is even smaller, yet the scope for corruption, unethical behavior, conflicts of interest, and even brazen thievery are far greater in Washington D.C.

And yet the Biden family stood out even there. To be born a Biden in the era after Joe switched his party affiliation, plagiarized his speeches, and inappropriately touched every woman or girl he could get his hands on in the state and the nation, was to be bred into dirty money.

Joe Biden was now asked in Wisconsin if Hunter had “profited off the Biden name”.

“None whatsoever,” the godfather of Delaware retorted. And the entire state laughed.

Say it ain’t so, Joe.

It doesn’t matter if you’re a Democrat or a Republican, in Delaware, everyone knows that the Biden name means money in the bank. Literally. Just ask MBNA, Hunter’s former employer, whose executives poured $200,000 into Joe’s coffers, and one of whom bought his house.

“Don’t worry about investors,” James Biden, Joe's brother, famous for scoring a billion dollar contract to build houses in Iraq, told executives at Paradigm Global Advisors.  “We've got people all around the world who want to invest in Joe Biden.”

James had bought Paradigm together with Hunter Biden.

Biden can try to deny the obvious, but he isn’t even trying to deny that the emails and photos are real, or that it was his son’s laptop. Instead, he spouted a word salad of gibberish, stating, “the vast of the intelligence people have come out and said there’s no basis at all.”

Why does Biden need to call on “the vast of the intelligence people” who carefully avoided making a firm statement, to deny something he is better able to deny on his own?

Because it’s really an admission.

The latest emails make it all too clear that Joe Biden got Viktor Shokin, the Ukranian prosecutor, fired because Burisma wanted him gone and that Hunter Biden's purpose in making deals with a powerful Chinese energy company linked to the Communist regime was to produce income for "me and my family". It’s no wonder that the latest reports link the FBI’s subpoena of the laptop, not to the media’s false claims of a Russian op, but to a money laundering investigation.

Investing in Joe Biden or, as one message allegedly has it, "the big guy", meant depositing the money with James or Hunter. And then Hunter deposited a laptop with a small computer repair shop in Delaware five miles from his father’s home, and never picked it up. The rest is history.

And the history is happening now.

The Hunter Biden laptop unrolls two ragged threads. One is the descent of Joe Biden’s son into new depths of depravity and the other are the foreign investors who bought into Joe Biden Inc.

The alleged photos of Hunter Biden’s drug use and underage girls might be dismissed as a spoiled rich kid’s demons. But, looking at public photos and videos of Joe Biden touching, caressing, and sniffing women and young girls, it’s hard not to see the influence. What did a teenage Hunter grow up seeing his father do? How did that shape him into the man he is?

And why was Hunter able to get away with it for so long?

In alleged text messages exchanged between Joe and Hunter Biden, father and son discuss "sexually inappropriate" behavior with a 14-year-old girl.

"She told my therapist that I was sexually inappropriate with [name of 14-year-old girl redacted] when she says that I facetime naked with her and the reason I can’t have her out to see me is because I’ll walk around naked smoking crack talking [redacted] girls on face time," Hunter appeared to message his father.

What was done about this? The odds are good that the answer is nothing.

The Hunter Biden laptop was turned over to the FBI in December of 2019. And the FBI appears to have done little with it. Giuliani submitted material allegedly showing criminal sexual behavior to the Delaware police who passed it off to the Delaware Department of Justice.

A spokesman for Delaware Attorney General Kathy Jennings said it was sent to the FBI.

Jennings is not only a Democrat, but a friend of the Biden family who had worked under Beau Biden and has been vigorously campaigning for Joe Biden.

"I’ve known Joe, Jill, and the Biden family for most of my life. Joe is one of the kindest and most genuine people I’ve ever known," Jennings had posted on her Facebook page.

The Biden family may have been able to get away with a lot for the same reason as the Kennedy clan. They were big fish in a small pond being protected by the Democrat club. Like some Kennedy sons, Hunter may have spun out of control because he could get away with it.

That’s why Hunter Biden’s story is just an echo of Joe. Father and son appear to share a boundless greed for unearned wealth and women, and a complete lack of self-control with both.

And both men have spent their lives being protected from the consequences of their actions.

Laptop computers, like notebooks, are the mirrors of their owners. We use them and fill them with the things that matter to us. Going through a lost laptop or phone tells us a lot about the man or woman who spent years with it. Hunter Biden’s laptop is a mirror of the man. And the mirror shows a broken and corrupt human being filling its gigabytes with his demons.

What were Hunter Biden’s demons? The same as the ones that bedeviled Joe. Women and money. And as dirty and wrong as possible. That’s why Hunter allegedly didn’t just seek out money, he went after business opportunities in the most corrupt places in the world, like Kazakhstan and the People’s Republic of China, and he didn’t just chase women.

Instead, Rudy Giuliani has said that the laptop contained photos of underage girls.

But the bigger story isn’t Hunter’s depravity, it’s the business opportunities, the lobbying gigs and board seats offered to him by foreign companies looking to invest in Joe Biden.

In less than two weeks, Joe Biden’s stock will either boom or bust. And voters are entitled to know who, beyond the battalions of domestic special interests from Wall Street to Hollywood, from the gun control lobby to green businesses, pouring hundreds of millions into his campaign, is getting ready to collect interest on the foreign money that financed Hunter’s lifestyle.

Hunter Biden's emails offer a window into a global operation, in the Ukraine, in Kazakhstan, and the People's Republic of China, of investing in Joe Biden courtesy of his wastrel son.

Joe Biden has claimed that he has nothing to do with his son’s business affairs, but that’s a transparent lie that had been shot down even long before the laptop by media reporting. The media is frantically trying to bury information that backs up their own reporting from the primaries when the same media now trying to save Joe Biden originally wanted to bury him.

Why did so many Democrat officials, beginning with Barack Obama, try to keep Joe Biden from running in 2016 and then 2020? Joe Biden is a mediocre hack, but he’s a better candidate than Hillary Clinton, not to mention lefty luminaries like Al Gore or John Kerry. The problem was that the small state that spawned the Biden crime family was littered with their dirty laundry.

And now, in the final stretch before Election Day, the messy stained laundry is spilling out.

Like Humpty Dumpty, all the Democrat horses and men are trying to keep the mess contained. Twitter and Facebook are blatantly suppressing the story. The media has refused to cover the biggest scandal of the election while falsely claiming that Hunter Biden’s laptop is Russian disinformation despite clear denials by the intelligence community and the FBI.

Hunter Biden’s laptop isn’t just evidence of a degenerate past, but of the coming attractions.

The Biden crime family has built a global network of contacts. And when their father was a mere veep, they could only wet their beaks a little. If he wins, they’ll be able to drown in money.

Joe could throw around his weight in a backwater like Ukraine, but if he wins, Burisma will just be a tiny taste of what is to come. And the corruption in D.C. will make Delaware blush again.

Corruption is nothing new in D.C., but what the laptop reveals about Hunter Biden and his father is that, like the Clintons, they have no self-control. And the only thing more dangerous than cunning crooks at the head of a nation are inept kleptocrats who would leave evidence of their financial and sexual corruption on a laptop abandoned in a Delaware repair shop.

As new details trickle out, two things are obvious about the Biden crime family: they’re not only as crooked as a bent tree in a thunderstorm, they’re also hopelessly stupid at covering it up.

Even as the media denies everything for the Bidens, they have yet to deny the core facts.

Rep. Schiff may claim that Hunter Biden’s laptop is a Russian conspiracy, but neither Joe nor Hunter will say it. And what Schiff and the Democrats and their media can only say behind their backs is that they can’t believe how corrupt and incompetent the horse they bet on really is.

They haven’t seen anything yet.

TOPICS: Editorial; Politics/Elections

1 posted on 10/22/2020 8:18:20 AM PDT by SJackson
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To: SJackson

C’mon man, you know it’s just good ‘ol boy Joe, the working man’s hero!

The author must be a lyin dog faced pony soldier.

2 posted on 10/22/2020 8:20:52 AM PDT by allwrong57
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To: allwrong57

———C’mon man——

Will be rendered by President Trump as “C’mon Big man......”

3 posted on 10/22/2020 8:22:32 AM PDT by bert ( (KE. NP. N.C. +12) t Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay My, o. h, my, what a wonderful day)
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To: SJackson

Wake me when this really goes somewhere.

4 posted on 10/22/2020 8:24:42 AM PDT by TiGuy22
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To: SJackson

Biden Crime Family
Prior to the October 14, 2020 Bombshell

8/3/2002: Sen. Biden’s Daughter Arrested
8/4/2002: Sen. Biden’s Daughter Arrested in Altercation


8/24/2008: Whew boy! “Joe Biden’s son is the one who got Obama out of this (Sinclair) mess.”
8/24/2008: My Son, The Lobbyist: Biden’s Son a Well-Paid DC Insider
8/25/2008: MBNA paid Biden son at critical time for bill
9/8/2008: The son also rises (Joe Biden influence alert)
9/13/2008: Biden’s son quits lobbying work
9/13/2008: Biden son no longer a federal lobbyist (Change we can’t believe in)
9/13/2008: Hunter Biden Puts Lobbyist Career On Hold
9/15/2008: Biden’s Son, Brother Named in Two Suits
9/19/2008: Why does Joe Biden lie about a ‘drunk driver’ killing his 1st wife?
10/15/2008: Biden routes campaign cash to family, their firms


1/1/2009: VP-Elect’s son reaches settlement for fraud Link for article no longer exists but on Wayback Machine
2/24/2009: Stanford Had Links to a Fund Run by Bidens
2/28/2009: JUDGE TO BANKER, BIDENS: GIVE PEACE A CHANCE (an elaborate scheme to defraud?)
3/28/2009: VP Daughter Caught Up in a Cocaine Scandal (?)
4/29/2009: Biden Son and Brother Near Epicenter of Two Ponzi Schemes
5/2/2009: Are the Bidens Mixed Up in Hedge Fund Scandal?
6/23/2009: A Biden connection: The Amtrak IG scandal


1/2/2010: Blogger Exposes Hedge Fund Scam


8/24/2015: Joe Biden’s Son Gets Caught with Ashley Madison Account (Says it’s a set-up)


1/20/2018: Joe Biden’s Niece Finally Pays up for $100K Credit Card Scam
3/15/2018: Inside the shady private equity firm run by Kerry and Biden’s kids
3/20/2018: Joe Biden’s Son’s Massive Deal with Chinese Company ‘Trying to Steal’ America’s Nuclear Secrets
7/27/2018: Biden’s Niece Gets Probation for $100,000 Credit Card Scam


4/4/2019: Exclusive: VP Biden Steered $1.8B tax dollars to Ukraine; Son Hunter Bagged ‘Sweetheart Govt Deal’
4/30/2019: Steve Hilton: China Is ‘Funding Biden Family Businesses’ with ‘Billions of Dollars’
5/1/2019: Hunter Biden, 49, ‘amicably’ splits from his brother Beau’s widow Hallie, 45, ..
5/1/2019: Biden’s History of Lies, Family Scandals and Corruption
5/2/2019: NYT Confirms Hunter Biden Was Paid by Ukrainians While Father Was VP
5/17/2019: Trump: Biden’s Son Should face Probe Over China Deal
6/20/2019: Watch: ABC’s ‘Good Morning America’ Presents Deep Dive into Hunter Biden’s Ukraine, China Dealings
6/20/2019: Arkansas Woman Says Hunter Biden is the Father of Her Infant Child
6/21/2019: Hunter Biden’s alleged love child debacle just the latest in string of suspicious incidents
7/1/2019” Biden son Hunter scoffs at Trump calls for probe into Ukraine business ties: ‘F-you, Mr. President!’
8/3/2019: Joe Biden’s Brother Scored Generous Loans During Banking Committee Tenure
8/3/2019: Biden’s Corruption Problem
8/5/2019: Joe Biden’s brother and hedge fund manager accused of fraud
8/18/2019: Business efforts of Biden brother and son prompt new questions over influence peddling
8/27/2019: Joe Biden’s brother is being sued by medical execs over a scheme....
9/20/2019: Ukrainian Official: We’re Ready to Investigate Biden’s Son—if Trump Asks Officially
9/20/2019: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine President to Investigate Biden’s Son

9/22/2019: Biden caught lying: Says He Never Discussed Hunter’s Ukraine Deal. Hunter Says He Did
9/23/2019: Hunter Biden Versus Joe Biden: Father and Son Contradict One Another Regarding Ukraine Scandal
9/23/2019: Lindsey Graham Says DOJ Should Investigate Biden-Ukraine Connection
9/23/2019: So, what were Hunter Biden’s connections to get a commission?
9/24/2019: John Solomon devastates Democrats on Ukraine
9/25/2019: RNC Calls On Biden To Release His Transcripts
9/25/2019: BEASTMODE: Sen. Kennedy Asks ‘Do You Think They Got Hunter Biden’s Name Off ZipRecruiter?’
9/25/2019: Video of Joe Biden Brags About Getting Ukranian Prosecutor Fired
9/26/2019: Now Joe Biden’s BROTHER is accused of sleaze: James Biden ‘promised healthcare firm...
9/26/2019: ‘Well, Son of a Bitch’ : Ukraine Scandal Is About Biden
9/26/2019: Biden’s OTHER massive scandal: The $1.5 billion China deal explained in three minutes (Video)
9/28/2019: Ace reporter John Solomon: Boatloads more corruption info on Joe, Hunter Biden coming
9/29/2019: Peter Schweizer joins Mark Levin to discuss corruption involving Hunter Biden
10/1/2019: Photo of Biden Golfing With Ukraine Gas Company Exec May Have Upended His Narrative
10/3/2019: Peter Schweizer: The bottom line is Joe Biden and his son’s Ukraine dealings must be investigated
10/4/2019: Nancy Pelosi’s Son Also Board Member of Energy Company, Traveled to Ukraine and Nancy
10/7/2019: Mollie Hemingway: Joe Biden’s brother also involved in scandal and media ignores it
10/9/2019: Why Joe Biden? Mitt Romney Asks
10/9/2019: What Hunter Biden Did Was Legal — And That’s the Problem

10/9/2019: Giuliani Just Dropped some BOMBS on Hannity
10/11/2019: Peter Schweizer: Hunter Biden’s ‘radio silence’ on Ukraine dealings only raises suspicions
10/13/2019: Donald Trump Taunts Hunter Biden as He Leaves Board of Chinese Investment Firm
10/13/2019: Hunter Biden Leaves China Board as Trump Attacks Hit Home
10/15/2019: The Bidens Concede
10/15/2019: Hunter Biden tells ABC News he received NO money from China, bank records tell a different story
10/27/2019: Joe Biden Defends His Son’s Ukraine Dealings: ‘He Did Not Do a Single Thing Wrong’
11/11/2019: Yes, a fair impeachment inquiry would question Hunter Biden
11/19/2019: Impeachment surprise: How Adam Schiff validated my reporting on Ukraine
11/19/2019: Rep. Adam Schiff To Ukraine: Don’t Investigate Bidens
11/20/2019: Hunter Biden the father of Arkansas woman’s baby, DNA test shows
11/22/2019: Joe Biden spars with reporter who asked about Hunter’s paternity suit
11/24/2019: Giuliani Claims To Have Decades Of Evidence Relating To ‘Biden Family’ Corruption In Latest Tweet
11/27/2019: EXCLUSIVEHunter Biden’s ‘baby mama’ Lunden Roberts was stripper at club he frequented
12/7/2019: Always Remember Joe Biden Misled Everyone About Wife’s Death, Blamed Innocent Man for Years
12/8/2019: Biden: ‘Nobody warned me’ about Hunter and Ukraine because Beau was dying
12/10/2019: Deadbeat Dad Hunter Biden Refuses to Pay Baby Mama Lunden Roberts’ $11,000 Legal Bill – And She’s Demanding He Admit How Much Burisma Paid Him!
12/12/2019: EXCLUSIVE: Hunter Biden’s baby mama will get to grill the vice president’s son under oath about money he made from Burisma [tr]
12/24/2019: Hunter Biden owns massive home in swanky Hollywood Hills, court


1/18/2020: How five members of Joe Biden’s family got rich through his connections
1/20/2020: Joe Biden’s Brother Frank Linked to Projects Receiving $54,000,000 in Taxpayer Loans from the Obama Administration—Despite No Experience
1/21/2020: New Reports Reveal That The Companies Of Biden’s Brother Received $54 MILLION In Taxpayer-Funded Loans To Finance Energy Projects In Central
1/23/2020: Peter Schweizer on how Biden family got rich: Hunter ‘just the tip of the iceberg’
1/28/2020: Lobbyist bought tropical land from Biden’s brother
2/9/2020” Rudy Giuliani predicts Trump will be ‘totally vindicated’ by ‘smoking gun’ in Hunter Biden probe: ‘We’ve got the documents’
2/17/2020: FBI Raids James Biden-Tied Business
3/10/2020: James Biden’s health care ventures face a growing legal morass. A mysterious FBI raid. New allegations from former executives. Questions are swirling about the business dealings of Joe Biden’s brother.
3/10/2020: Mainstream Media Ignore Report Of Joe Biden’s Brother Facing Fraud Allegations
3/11/2020: Senate Democrat wants investigation into possible bias of federal agencies in Hunter Biden requests
5/21/2020: Lawsuit Documents Allege James Biden Committed Fraud, Racketeering
7/11/2020: Joe Biden’s family racks up arrests for drugs, drunk driving - but no jail time
10/5/2020: Joe Biden’s niece set to appear in court for DUI case day after presidential election
The October Surpise October 14, 2020

Smoking-gun email reveals how Hunter Biden introduced Ukrainian businessman to VP dad
BREAKING: Hunter Biden laptop seized by FBI, smoking gun emails obtained by NY Post
The BIDEN CRIME FAMILY’S Payoff Scheme | Rudy Giuliani’s EXCLUSIVE Reaction
Twitter and Facebook are actively censoring the Biden/Ukraine corruption stories
Hunter Biden and the Big Tech information coup
House Judiciary GOP copies Biden NY Post story to their website and posts it on twitter
Identity theft, Ashley Madison scandal, stripper baby mama, sleeping with brother’s widow, quickie marriage and now an email bombshell: How Hunter’s past continues to haunt him - and threatens to ruin Joe’s WH run
Jack Dorsey APOLOGIZES after Trump threatened to remove Facebook and Twitter protections and called them ‘terrible’ for blocking story about Joe Biden meeting son Hunter’s Ukraine business partners
Donald Trump claims Hunter Biden’s laptop revelations show his rival’s family are ‘grifters’ as Rudy Giuliani boasts of 40,000 MORE emails after bombshell claim VP met his son’s Ukraine business partner
Biden Campaign: VP May Have Had ‘Informal’ Meeting With Burisma Exec At Center Of Bombshell NY Post Report

October 15, 2020

Man Who Had Hunter Biden’s Laptop Suggests There’s More, Hints At FBI Coverup, Fears Assassination (Full Audio Interview)
NEW: Emails reveal how Hunter Biden tried to cash in big on behalf of family with Chinese firm
President Trump Tweet: Video of Joe Biden Denials
Why did Biden Meet with Soros the Day Before the Burisma Email to Hunter?
Computer Repairman Who Exposed Biden Emails Says FBI Told Him to Stay Quiet
Joe Biden had this impeachment thing that was bleepin’ golden, but Hunter Biden messes it up
Latest Cache Of Emails Detail How Hunter Biden Earned Millions In China “For Introductions”
(VIDEO) Tucker: Big Tech Smothering Hunter’s Email Story Is Censorship on a Scale We Never Imagined
It Gets Worse! Obama White House “Hosted” Call To Burisma About Joe’s $1 Billion Extortion Trip
House Republicans ask FBI if it had Hunter Biden’s alleged laptop during Trump’s impeachment
Emails reveal Hunter Biden tried to cash in on behalf of family with Chinese firm
Feds examining whether alleged Hunter Biden emails are linked to a foreign intel operation (Fake News)
Biden advisers cannot rule out meeting with Ukrainian energy executive

October 16, 2020

Hunter Biden Offered $10 Million Annually by Chinese Energy Firm for ‘Introductions Alone,’ Email Shows
EXCLUSIVE: 1-On-1 With Rudy Giuliani — What Haven’t We Seen From The Hunter Biden Hard Drive, And Why Won’t He Release It In Full?
Steve Bannon boasted ‘I have Hunter’s hard drive’ two weeks before its secrets were revealed - and allies of billionaire Chinese fugitive who pays Bannon and partied with Rudy Giuliani hinted at ‘sex and money scandal’ late in September too
I asked Joe Biden: What is your response to the NYPost story about your son, sir? He called it a “smear campaign” and then went after me...

October 17, 2020

After Hours: NY Post Hunter Biden Scandal with Steve Bannon
Yes, The Hunter Biden Emails Are Authentic
Hunter Biden: What was he doing in Ukraine and China?
NPR: ‘Experts’ Say Covering Hunter Biden Corruption Story Deepens ‘Stigma’ of Addiction For ‘Millions’
CBS news director responds to his reporter for asking Biden about Hunter
Exclusive: Larry C. Johnson Interviews John Paul Mac Issac — The American Patriot Who Was Hired to Fix Hunter Biden’s Computers and the Rest Is History
Donald Trump was impeached for Joe Biden’s crimes
Hunter Biden emails ‘identify Joe Biden as ‘’the Big Guy’’ who would receive 10% share in deal with Chinese energy firm’
Rudy Previews UNRELEASED Info From Hunter’s Hard Drive
Hunters Laptop: Computer shop owner contacted the Senate Committee on Sept 24th (new Johnson letter)
RIDING THE DRAGON: The Bidens’ Chinese Secrets (Full Documentary)
Clift: ‘Social Media Companies Are Reacting Responsibly’ to Hunter Biden Story (Daily Beast attacks free press!)
NY POST - HUNTER BIDEN SCANDAL | The Timeline | Obama | Hillary | Biden | Hunter | Media

October 18, 2020

Wait, There’s More: Before the Bidens ‘Did’ Ukraine, There Was Iraq – and Serbia
Censoring the Biden story: How social media becomes state media
Joe Biden-Linked Firm Made Major Investments in Chinese Corporations
Hunter Biden Emails ‘Identify Joe Biden As ‘’The Big Guy’’ Who Would Receive 10% Share In Deal With Chinese Energy Firm
Does this explain why Facebook suppressed Hunter Biden revelations?

5 posted on 10/22/2020 8:26:58 AM PDT by elpadre
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To: SJackson

Just heard on FOX Business that a former business partner Of Hunter has said that Joe actually had to sign off on several of Hunter’s foreign business deals.

I’m sure Trump will bring it up in the debate, but Joe will just deny & refuse to discuss it.

6 posted on 10/22/2020 8:31:18 AM PDT by nuconvert ( Warning: Accused of being a radical militarist. Approach with caution.)
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To: nuconvert

Yeah, Biden will deny and then say “200,000 dead Americans....”

7 posted on 10/22/2020 8:32:45 AM PDT by lodi90
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To: SJackson

C’mon man,

It’s just Joe...


8 posted on 10/22/2020 8:35:41 AM PDT by M Kehoe (DRAIN THE SWAMP! Finish THE WALL!)
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To: bert

Terry McCauliffe next at bat for the Democrats told the DNC to keep Biden in the basement on June 10, 2020. The money was still coming in with Joe underground Terry was busy working his magic Rolodex.

9 posted on 10/22/2020 9:33:02 AM PDT by cnsmom
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To: SJackson


10 posted on 10/22/2020 12:50:57 PM PDT by Albion Wilde ("When you open your heart to patriotism, there is no room for prejudice." --Donald Trump)
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To: elpadre; ransomnote; Steven W.; greeneyes; TEXOKIE; txhurl; saywhatagain; Swordmaker; ptsal; ...

Outstanding post. Thank you.

ping to my list, post #5

11 posted on 10/22/2020 4:45:11 PM PDT by generally ( Don't be stupid. We have politicians for that.)
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To: elpadre

The Biden Diary


12 posted on 10/22/2020 8:47:51 PM PDT by ptsal (Vote R.E.D. >>>Remove Every Democrat ***)
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To: nuconvert
...but Joe will just deny & refuse to discuss it.

OF course!

If we don't see it on TV; then it's a lie, disinformation, Russian meddling, there was an earthquake. A terrible flood. Locusts!


13 posted on 10/23/2020 5:19:13 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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